LL-L "Grammar" 2007.05.03 (03) [E/Norwegian/Swedish]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  03 May 2007 - Volume 03

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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.05.02 (09) [E]

Anyway, thanx for the info about Nynorsk.  The other day I was evaluating a
computer software package and it stated that it supported Nynorsk.  I paused
and thought "What the heck is Nynorsk?" and went on.  You see, it is
becoming even more important for 'computers' to be able to operate in a
number of languages and dialects.
>>>

Which software was it? I'm still busy replacing all my English/Bokmål
software wiht Nynorsk ones

while Dano-Norwegian, based on Danish, an East Scandinavian language,
evolved over a long time (and took on more West Scandinavian features more
recently, such as lots of older Norwegian words and also things like
genitive after nouns, such as far min "father mine" = "my father').
>>>

The posessive pronoun (and only these genitives) behind the word it belongs
to, is indeed used in all Norwegian dialects, but most/many(?) older (now
vanishing) Swedish dialects had this too. So I'm not sure if this really was
a East/West distinction. Danish doesn't have it at least (making it rather
north-south? I am not sure what old Danish would have, maybe it's even a Low
German intrusion, putting it *in front? )*
In some Swedish prose and poetry one may still encounter it. My Swedish
teacher told me that most Swedes don't use it anymore (she doesn't anyway)
but that it does *not *sound unnatural to them when they encounter it. (as
would 'vader mijn' in Dutch). I would rather believe that the "min fa(de)r"
in Swedish is due to the written language and Rikssvensk expansion? Thus
being a quite recent change. Also here a Low Saxon influence, on the written
language and on the language in bigger cities like Stockholm is not
unthinkable. (my teacher is from Stockholm)

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From: R. R. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Hi, Diederik!

You are right, sort of.  My mention of "East" and "West" put an undesirable
spin on this.  I should have left it with "Norwegian vs Danish."

I'll take this a bit further, despite being a bit outside our focus, since
there is your mention of a possible link with Low Saxon.

Now, you are right in saying that the position of possessive pronouns in
Scandinavian is not strictly devided by Western Scandinavian versus Eastern
Scandinavian.  You may be correct in saying that foreign (Saxon) influence
caused it to shift in Danish, considering also that Old Gutnish has the  [
noun] [pronoun] construction.  And yes, Jamtlandish (E. Scan.) and many
Swedish dialects have it in post-nominal position.  However, Standard
Swedish and Southern Swedish dialects also use the post-nominal position.
From the Wren story ([pronoun] [noun]):

De hade velat finna mat till sina ungar ... [their young]

"Varför tar du dig för att komma till vårt hus", väser han, "för att skrämma
mina barn?" [our house] [my children]

I consider the [noun]+[pron] structure in today's written Standard
Dano-Norwegian (Bokmål) a case of "re-Norvegianization." In earlier days,
the language was much more Danish, and Norwegian writers by and large
followed Danish grammar, probably also talked like that (while ordinary
Norwegians probably spoke with a more Norwegian twist).  Look at Henrik
Ibsen's work Fru Inger til Østråt, for instance; e.g.,

... fortæl mig et af dine eventyr.
[... tell me one of your stories.]

Har du glemt, hvor tidt og mange gange vi sad som børn på dine knæ om
vinterkvelden?
[Have you forgotten, our time and (the) many times we sat on your
knees on winter evenings as children?]

Lucia, min kæreste søster ...
[Lucia, my dearest sister ...]

... jeg kunde rive mine øjne ud af hovedet
[... I could rub my eyes out of "the head"]

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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