LL-L "Names" 2008.01.19 (02) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L  -  18 January 2008 - Volume 02
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From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2008.01.18 (05) [E]

On Saturday 19 January 2008 08:20, Lowlands-L List wrote:
<snip>
> The words "Waal" and "Walloon" mean "stranger", so I'm not so fond of this
> word for the linguistic status of the southern half of Belgium; it
neglects
> the regional languages spoken there, and it reduces Romance inhabitants of
> the Lowlands as "strangers"

Does this have any relation to the Dutch river called Waal?  I've got
Dutch-Australian relatives with de Waal as their surname, and am wondering
if
it was an important boundary at some point or other.

> Reinhard you wrote,
>
> It is true that *Waal* etc. has been variously interpreted as "stranger."
> The other, probably original and remaining meaning is something like
> "Romance-speaking" from "Romance-speaking Celtic." The group of names is
> related to "Gaul," "Gallic," "Gaelic," "Wales," "Welsh," *welsch*,
> *Wallis*; cf. French *gallois* for 'Welsh'. In this sense I don't see
> anything negative in it, but perhaps it's different for Dutch speakers.
> Large tracts of formerly Celtic-speaking Europe became Romance-speaking,
> and Germanic speakers therefore identified any Romance variety
(practically
> all of which had Celtic substrata) as "Welsh." It was only later that this
> name came to be extended to mean "others" and "gobbledigook" ( e.g. German
> *Kauderwelsch*).
<snip>
>  ----------
>
> From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Names"
>
> Beste Ron,
>
> You wrote:
>
>    1. It is true that *Waal* etc. has been variously interpreted as
>    "stranger." The other, probably original and remaining meaning is
> something like "Romance-speaking" from "Romance-speaking Celtic." The
group
> of names is related to "Gaul," "Gallic," "Gaelic," "Wales," "Welsh,"
> *welsch*, *Wallis*; cf. French *gallois* for 'Welsh'. In this sense I
don't
> see anything negative in it, but perhaps it's different for Dutch
speakers.
> Large tracts of formerly Celtic-speaking Europe became Romance-speaking,
> and Germanic speakers therefore identified any Romance variety
(practically
> all of which had Celtic substrata) as "Welsh." It was only later that this
> name came to be extended to mean "others" and "gobbledigook" ( e.g. German
> *Kauderwelsch*).
>
> The troubled relationship between the (Western) Flemish and the French is
> old. During the battle of the Guldensporenslag (in 1302), the slogan
> already was: "Wat walsch is, valsch is. Slaet al dood."
> (freely translated: What is welsh, is false. Slay all)
>
> I'm not a historian, but I have the impression that these
> anti-French/Francophone feelings have always been a lot more intense in
> Flanders than they were in the center of the country. Maybe this
originated
> in the County of Flanders being a fief of the French king, whereas the
> Duchy of Brabant was part of the Holy Roman Empire. Maybe, maybe, maybe it
> even goes further back to a Saxon/Frankish divide, where the French king
> was viewed as heir to the Frankish warlords.
>
> Franks, in turn, can also be seen as "strangers" of course, just look at
> the Thai word "farang", for a Westerner and Persian "farangi" for a
> non-muslim.

In Thailand it would derive from the troubled relations between the Thai
kingdom and the French Republic/Empire during the nineteenth century, the
century when they tightened their grip on Indo-China aka Laos, Cambodia and
Vietnam.

In Persian it would derive from the Arabic "franj" which dates back to the
Crusades and the Normans who led them - in spite of the fact that the Frnech
were a percentage of the Crusaders, and the Normans didn't consider
themselves "French" at that time - for quite some time the question seemed
to
be whether it was the French Kings who were Norman vassals or vice versa and
the Hundred Years War can also be viewed from that perspective.

Wesley Parish

--
Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish
-----
Gaul is quartered into three halves.  Things which are
impossible are equal to each other.  Guerrilla
warfare means up to their monkey tricks.
Extracts from "Schoolboy Howlers" - the collective wisdom
of the foolish.
-----
Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui?
You ask, what is the most important thing?
Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata.
I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people.

•

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