LL-L "Language learning" 2008.05.18 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

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L O W L A N D S - L  - 18 May 2008 - Volume 01
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From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2008.05.17 (02) [E]

Hi Sandy! Fit-like the day?

> Are there any language-learning series these days that describes
> languages in terms of the IPA instead of "imitated pronunciation" (or
> worse, a cassette tape or CD!).

Worse, indeed, being Deaf! ;-)

No,to my knowledge as far language texts presently on the market are
concerned, IPA is dead. Most unfortunate indeed. When a Teach
Yourself, say, tells me that Punjabi "ai" is pronounced "like the a in
man", what AM I to think? I assume the author is NOT referring to
Sandy Fleming's "a in man", but whose then?

> Here's a question for dead language students... eh... dead-language
> students...

Okay, as an ex-(?) Indo-Europeanist with some experience ...

> When learning dead languages, how important do you consider
> pronunciation to be?

I can remember my first year as a (post)-gradutae student when Prof.
Felix Oinas (a sweet old fellow with a LOVELY Estonian accent! ... may
his memory live on and he himself RIP) having all us Old Church
Slav(on)ic students read the texts out loud before translating them
(most with Gideon's under the table as a cheat). And he would
inevitably get on everyone's "case" about their nasal vowels ... which
HE himself pronounced as if they were velar nasals: БѪДѪ 'I will' came
out as "bong-dong" ... most certainly NOT the way Cyril or Methodius
themselves pronounced it!

MY personal sense is that unless we :
a) are historical linguists and phonology is our "thing", or
b) are planning on resurrectig the One True-and-Original Slavic
Orthodox Church and need to improve our credentials, or
c) want to impress our friends and associates at cocktail parties
then learning correct pronunciation of dead langauges is important
ONLY insofar as it aids memory and correct learning (e.g. distinctions
are learned so that they remain distinct in our mind). Otherwise, if i
pronounce Latin incorrectly, who will care? No one seems to care when
the Pope does!

Re language mistakes:
> Do you think this sort of thing is harmful and needs to be corrected
> early, or would the normal course of learning and exposure sort it out?

It all depends. IF the students are in a situation where they can and
will get a "normal course of learning and exposure" then i would not
worry about it. In fact, generally I correct students in class much
less than a lot of them want ...

But sometimes, as in my example of cook > ceek, the "mistake" itself
is so very instructive, that it can be incorporated into the class to
increase the students consciousness of langauge rules, etc. (It
depends of course on the structure of instruction -- and the level and
maturity of the students -- whether metalinguistic discussion of
language is appropriate or not.)

> Do students get to the point of making persistent language errors that
> are difficult to sort out later if left unattended?

Yes, sometimes they do ... but only rarely ... and usually it is only
a problem if they have been exposed for some time to "wrong" language
practice, and not had the opportunities to self-correct. Then heaven
help the teacher who inherits them and has to un-teach the engrained
mistakes. (Memories of more than a few such cases in Japan come to
mind.)

> As a learner, is it OK for me to take a relaxed attitude to my errors,
> safe in the knowledge that I can always correct them, or do I have to be
> careful not to develop bad habits in the first place?

Bad habits need to be corrected ... eventually. Generally the best way
is to let them correct themselves. But, IF they persist uncorrected
for TOO long they can in fact become so fixed that they are next to
impossible to correct. ... but what is "too long" depends.

In my own case I didn't really have anyone sit down with me and help
me correct my poor pronunciation of Russian (my 2nd 2nd language ...
and my main 2nd language till replaced by various sign languages)
palatalized and unpalatalized liquids (r's and l's) until I started
teaching (so maybe 7 years after I started studying Russian?). Then a
fellow teacher, who was also an expert on the Russian phonetics
(theoretcially AND practically), was kind enough to point out the
errors of my ways. It took about 2 weeks and I have never sinned
again!

MWM || マイク || Мика || माईक  || માઈક || ਮਾਈਕ

PS for Ron/Reinhard, the M or MWM is for MIKE not Mark ;-)

================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India
++++++++++++++++
माईकल मोर्गन (पी.एच.डी.)
मेनेजिंग डॉयरेक्टर
ईशारा फॉउंडेशन (मुंबई )
++++++++++++++++
茂流岸マイク(言語学博士)
イシャラ基金の専務理事・事務局長
ムンバイ(ボンベイ)、インド

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language learning

Oopsy! Sorry, M... Mike.

Too many Mikes and Marks, I suppose ...


Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Rpn
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