LL-L "History" 2008.05.18 (02) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L  - 18 May 2008 - Volume 02
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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2008.05.17 (03) [E]

Dear Reginhardt,

you wrote/quoted:

To my knowledge, there are no pre-Christian Saxon sources that give us any
sort of idea of what the Saxons were really like. As in most such cases, it
is the conquerer and the occasional visitor of other ethnicities that get to
portray the vanquished, and we are supposed to believe those descriptions.

I fully agree with you here, but indeed there are a couple of historicans
who compare the early Saxons with the Vikings.

In these portrayals, Liudger represents true Christian values to
counterbalance Charlemagne's use of Christianity for expansionist purposes.

We should bear in mind that already before the time of Charlemagne there had
occurred a certain disjoinment of the Saxons into different 'Gaus', and not
to forget those ones who went together with the Angles and Jutes to Britain.
Their expansion had been too wide, and so they certainly had/have developed
differently (not only in languages) within some hundred years of history.

Probably in Charle's time the meanwhile mightiest concentration of them we
find in the East- and West-Phalian areas, and this region bordered to the
Frankish dominion. So here the conflict with Charles started, and the main
part of the documentary deals with these Saxons resp. depends on sources of
that region ('Paderborn').

Different from the Northern Saxons (Wigmodien/Haduloah/Nordalbingien) the
greater part of those Saxons in the centre of Middle Europe right after
having been defeated came under a continuous rule of the Catholic Church
what by and large was kept up to the presence: there still are the dioceses
Münster and Hildesheim with a predominant catholic population around them.

Different in the Northern part of Saxonia (Lower Saxony): the 'Nordliudi'
('people from the North') obviously didn't easily accept the dominance of
the Catholic Church which fact is shown by the continuous resistance in the
regions of Dithmarschen, Stedingen, Hadeln and Kehdingen. Kehdingen for
example got under the rule of the Archbishop of Bremen A.D 1306 (many
rebellions still followed!), and since A.D. 1548 they had a protestantic
pastor (Otterndorf already 1524). A pretty short time with the Pope, but the
Dithmarscher even didn't accept the forerunners, the Counts of Stade
(probably enthroned by Charlemagne resp. the mighty Archbishop of Mainz),
and killed some of them when they dared to cross the Elbe river to inspect
this part of their domain ... Well done, neighbours ;-)!

So- if people start investigations about the Saxons history they probably
will come to different results, depending on what area they look upon and
what weltanschauung they prefer...! You always should bear in mind that the
domicile of the ZDF is Mainz (see above) ;-)!

Have a nice Sunday!

Jonny Meibohm

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Thanks a lot, Jonny! Very interesting. And it makes a lot of sense, too. ;-)

Let me ask you and others some questions in this regard, questions that may
or may not be naive. At any rate, they are based on what you and I seem to
consider a fact: that in the land of the *Nordliudi *(today's Dithmarschen,
Stedingen, Hadeln and Kehdingen) there is a long tradition of what outsiders
tend to consider conservatism. Even if you do not subscribe to this you must
admit that, as in the cases of Dat Ole Land (Das Alte Land) and
Veerlannen*(Vierlanden
*) and even Finkwarder (Finkenwerder), it is remarkable that people in those
parts have retained their identity so long considering the close proximity
of at least three cities: Hamburg, Cuxhaven and Bremerhaven. (In the case of
Dat Ole Land there may be the "Dutch" element that boosted a sense of
uniqueness.)

   1. Apart from the aspect of rural versus urban, do you think this has
   anything to do with the ancestral anti-Frankish attitude?
   2. Do you think that a certain measure of more or less staunch general
   North German identity goes back to the same, perhaps prolonged by centuries
   of Hanseatic power? (This tends to be expressed in the form of "North
   German" culture, but it is likely a continuation of Saxon identity and
   culture.)
   3. Was the pretty much resounding success of the Reformation in the north
   favored by this? (In other words, is it possible that people perceived it as
   a type of liberation from Frankish dominance?)

Thanks for thinking about it.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
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