LL-L "Language use" 2008.11.20 (02) [D/E]

Thu Nov 20 19:32:27 UTC 2008

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L O W L A N D S - L - 20 November 2008 - Volume 03
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From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.11.19 (01) [E]

Beste Heather and Reinhard,

you wrote:

(Heather)

Can I suggest that this is one of the BIGGEST reasons why English speakers
just give up when abroad trying to speak the language of the country. I have
heard it countless times from people who were all geared up to do their
shopping or ask directions or order a meal in the language only to be met
with English replies.

It is utterly disheartening!

....

(Ron)

The push to know English is enormous all around the world now. Many people
seem to have a hard time admitting that their English as a second language
isn't quite sufficient in a given situation, especially in an
English-speaking environment or talking with a person who has English as a
first language. Admitting that it's insufficient is like admitting failure,
which most people find too embarrassing.

Let me speak about my feeling as a German born into a time after WWII when
everything around being 'German' still was connected with damned Nazi-stuff
or, as a result of a long time of international isolation, with
provincialism, stupidity and uglyness (Reinhard, Mike, you perhaps will
agree!). One possibility to climb out of this situation (besides any useful
businesses *s*): you had to show that you were able to talk in your
hosts'/guests' language, preferably better than your respondent commanded
German.

This wasn't a factum, but just a feeling!

Another reason to talk English at all possible opportunities might have been
caused by the fact that specially in Northern Germany we lived in the
Anglo-American zone of occupation, with (in the late fifties and beginning
sixties) most time very friendly contact to the Allies. But they were
soldiers, and they didn't have a chance to learn German resp. didn't want to
do within their short time of service in Germany. My parents had
- for whatever reasons - a lot of contact to British soldiers, but weren't
able to talk English. So they first tried to make some conversation in a
mixture of French, German and some snippets of English, till I could help
them as a kind of interpreter.

This made me an important person, not only in my family ;-)!

At the same time American and British music swashed all over the European
continent. You were considered to be a backwoodsman if you would hear music
with German texts, and this lasted for roughly half a century (today very
young people prefer German-texted music - probably a result of a solid
self-confidence of those German youngsters, who have already been educated
by an 'innocent' generation as well as of the growing influence of different
ethnics in G.).

But in general: isn't it a question of 'social adaptation' to try to copy
your respondent's customs? And isn't a language a kind of custom in a farer
sense? In German we have got the idiom 'er spricht dieselbe Sprache wie wir'
('he's speaking the same language as we do'), meaning 'he's nearly one of
us, of our *tribe*'. An archaic, deep-rooted way of human behaviour to show
that someone is welcomed, to open the doors for a stranger.

But of course I have to agree, that this sometimes might be disheartening,
as Heather wrote, for native speakers of English who want to learn a foreign
language 'in situ'. To be too polite even can be impolite! C'est la vie...

(Heather)

We then had the weirdest of conversations where I spoke in German to her,
she spoke in English to me, but in German over the phone to her daughter who
was giving her directions.

Now why was that? You would have thought someone who was lost and with
little English would thank the Gods that they had happened to find
themselves outside the house of someone who happens to speak German but
no...... she insisted on speaking English.

The lady may have been completely confused by the whole situation!?

Let me just mention one additional aspect. Again and again I have to
experience that my quality of talking heavily depends on the quality of the
language skill of my correspondent - no matter if it is German, Low Saxon or
English (the three of them I'm more or less able to *speak*). Some strong
feed-back is affecting me - perhaps as a result of my unconscious efforts to
reach an equal level. But there is a certain limit up- as well as downwards
across which I don't want and don't be able to follow without feeling myself
unwell. At such a point I always should try to escape from the whole
conversation or, if possible, shift to another language.

Of course - this can be impolite, once again...

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

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From: Ronald Veenker <veenker at atmc.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.11.19 (01) [E]

Dear Heather,

Your email reminds me of a strange event Orley in Paris.  I had a colleague
at my university who was a specialist in Canadian French literature.  Karin
is a native speaker of French, born in the Alsace.  Her mother always spoke
French to the children and her father German.  Karin has a PhD from a
university in the US and returns home to the family about two or three times
a year.  When she arrived at the baggage area at Orley and spoke to a
uniformed attendant in French he answered her in English, suggesting to her
that he didn't think she knew his language.  She felt terribly put down.

Ron Veenker

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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at telenet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.11.19 (02) [E]

Hi,

De paar keer dat ik in Amsterdam op bezoek was, is mij dat meerdere keren
overkomen, ook bij de andere mensen van de groep die mee waren. We vonden
dit hoogst vervelend.  Eigenlijk hadden we net hetzelfde gevoel als vroeger
toen we tot voor enkele jaren in Brussel Nederlands praatten. We werden
direct uitgescholden, of men deed alsof we niet bestonden. In Brussel is het
nu wel al verbeterd. Sommigen proberen wat Nederlands te praten, anderen
verontschuldigen zich, maar de meesten spreken het niet.

Vriendelijke groeten,

Luc Vanbrabant

Oekene

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.11.19 (01) [E]

 Hey Heather, I recognise the story you just posted here, as I've had
similar things happen to me nearly every 2 weeks here. In my case it's even
more ridiculous!

 As some on here might know I'm a Fleming living in Amsterdam in the
Netherlands, have been living here for 2 + 0.5 years now (one year
inbetween, in Norway).

 So I do speak the same native language as the 'locals'. Of course I have a
strong Antwerp accent (stronger than average because of cultivating in the
past years), but ever since primary school I have been taught standard Dutch
+ having lived so long from home has made me speak mainly standard Dutch
with regional accent when I'm in the Dam, using hardly any regional words or
constructions and with a much adapted pronunciation.

 However still, especially when I go to bars or restaurants, I am being
replied to in English. I know that Amsterdam is a very touristy place, so
Dutch people are used to speaking a lot of English to foreigners here. But I
ask something in Dutch, and I am more or less a native speaker! This happens
at least once or twice every 2 weeks.

  Even when telling them in Dutch that I speak Dutch they continue in
English as if they didn't understand me. When I say in English that I am a
native Dutch speaker they still won't get the point. So I just switch to
English along with them to save hour long attempts o trying to tell them
that they can actually understand me altho they don't realise.

  More embarassing yet is that in many of these cases from their first
(English) answer I can deduct that they actually understood what I
said/ordered. I ask something, and they answer my question in English! Isn't
that awkward... so they can't pretend not understanding me... strange, two
natives of the same language having to conversate in English because one
refuses to acknowledge that he actually understood that other person. Like a
person from Marseille speaking standard French would get served in English
in Paris, just because the barkeeper hears he's not from the capital! In
France the negative feelings towards English still prevent situations like
this occurring though, I guess

Greetings, Diederik

----------

From: David B. Frank <davidbfrank at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language use" 2008.11.20 (02) [D/E]

Hallo Lowlanders,

Mijn Nederlands is zeker niet perfect. Mensen horen meteen dat ik geen
Nederlander ben, maar ze kunnen het niet meteen horen dat ik Amerikaans of
Engelstalig ben.  Dus gaan we meestal door in het Nederlands als ik in
Nederland een gesprekje met iemand voert.

Mijn Nederlandse accent is heel tegenover van mijn Amerikaans, want ik
spreek het Engels met een redelijke sterke "Southern" accent.  ("How y'all
doin'?", bijvoorbeeld).  Maar in het Nederlands probeer ik zo goed mogelijk
een goede Nederlandse uitsprak te doen.  Nou, het lukt niet echt want je
hoort dat ik geen Nederlander bent.  Maar ik rol mijn 'r', ik gebruik een
harde Hollandse 'g', ik spreek mijn 'ui' uit als iemand van uit Danville,
Virginia als ze 'about the house' zeggen, ik spreek mijn 'eu' uit als iemand
uit North Wilkesboro, North Carolina als ze 'folk' zeggen.  Dus door het
gebruik van deze en andere hulpmiddelen en ezelbruggetjes kan ik ten minste
mijn Engelstalige afkomst verbergen.

Groeten van uit de kille Blue Ridge,
David B. Frank

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