LL-L "Etymology" 2008.11.22 (04) [E/LS]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 22 November 2008 - Volume 04
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.11.22 (01) [D/E]

From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <roerd096 at PLANET.NL <mailto:roerd096 at PLANET.NL>>



Markus, jij schreef dat in het Nederlands "kwytje" niet bestaat, maar dat
is niet helemaal waar. We kennen wel de uitdrukking "kwijtje spelen" i.e.
spelen dat je kwijt bent. "Kwijt" betekent "verloren", "weggeraakt",
dus "kwijtje spelen" is "doen alsof je kwijt/verloren/weg bent".

In het Zeeuws, en vroeger ook in het Hollands, is de vorm "kwietje"
(met korte ie) of "kwitje" de juiste equivalent van NL "kwijtje".

Kwietje en vooral kwitje zijn qua uitspraak vrijwel identiek aan "Quiddje".

En is een "Quiddje" wellicht iemand die zich verloren voelt (de weg kwijt
is), omdat hij als niet-Noord-Duitser/niet-Nedersaks/niet-Hamburger de
plaatselijke zeden en taal niet goed begrijpt?

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>



Thanks, guys! Fancy our Ingster coming out of the woodwork!

Thanks for confirming that /kwijtje/ and /kwietje/ are in fact used, Ingmar.
This is another case to show that one should not make up one's mind on the
basis of dictionaries alone.


Ik heff natürlich googelt, bevör ik hier de Thees opstell, dat dat dat Woord
"kwijtje" nich gifft. Ik heff sehn, dat dat "kwijtje spelen" gifft.
"verloren spelen" is aver _ganz wied_ weg vun Quiddje. Denn mutt al en
Nawies her, dat dat fröher ok allgemeen bruukt worrn is. Ik bün mi temlich
seker, dat dat Plattdüütsche keen Wöör ut nedderlandsche Dialekten
övernahmen hett. Entweder ut de Standardspraak oder dat Woord mutt in all
Dialekten dortwischen vörkamen (wenn sik dat also as "Well" na de
Wellentheorie utbreedt hett). Oder de drüdde Mööglichkeit: Dat en enkelte
Person den Utdruck präägt hett un de sik denn allgemeen dörsett hett. Denn
is allens mööglich.

Op jeden Fall dücht mi, dat "een, de sik verloren föhlt" _keen_ gode
Grundlaag is, för een Utdruck, de keen "Autonym" is, sünnern en "Xenonym".
De "inner Gemütslage" vun de Frömmen hett de Hambörgers gewiss nix scheert.

Marcus Buck

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com
Subject: Etymology

Oh, oh, Marcus! Confident that there are *no* Dutch loans in Northern Low
Saxon of Germany (unless all varieties in between have them)?! That isn't
very open-minded, is it?

How would you then explain the case of *suutje* which has the Dutch vowel (*
zoetjes*) instead of the Low Saxon one (*öö* ~ *eu*)?

Eastern Friesland's dialects have many Dutch loans due to centuries of
contacts with the Netherlands. The dialect border between Eastern Friesland
and areas to the south and east of it have been pretty fluid.

Dutch-speaking immigrants founded communities and even towns in many parts
of Northern Germany, all the way to Northern Friesland and Eastern Prussia.
Near Hamburg there are for instance Friedrichstadt (where Dutch was an
official language for a while), Glückstadt and Altes Land. Many were
Mennonites, Remonstrants and Dutch Catholics. They contributed technology
and probably some culture. Why not words?

Hamburg in particular had longstanding direct ties with Amsterdam and also
with other Dutch-speaking cities. Most of them were commercial, but there
was a lot of intermarriage and migration also, as well as religious
contacts. Dutch family names have long been represented in Hamburg in good
numbers (some of which became nativized because of linguistic similarities).
We have to mention that Hamburg merchant families used to settle especially
in Amsterdam and Rotterdam, and Dutch merchant families used to settle in
Hamburg. Copenhagen had a specific Dutch part of town, virtually all
immigration having come via Hamburg. And there were notable Jewish
connections between Amsterdam, Hamburg and Copenhagen, first Sephardic ones
and then Ashkenazi ones, with intermarriages and traveling Gentile
employees.

Cultural and linguistic continua are good and fine. But they come to be
disrupted eventually, and sometimes all that's left of them is scattered
enclaves. Furthermore, people move around, establish enclaves elsewhere and
most of their imported heritage eventually disappears -- most, not
necessarily all. Port and merchant cities have always been anomalies,
islands to themselves, although they do influence their immediate
surroundings. Seafarers, many of them hired by foreign shipping lines,
brought with them this and that from far and wide, especially foreign
nautical terms, and some of them came to be adopted by the general
population (e.g. Hamburg Low Saxon *Törn* 'brief tour' from English "turn").
(And they imported sea shanties and the shanty tradition from British
employ.)

Dutch importations are more difficult to discern because of the similarities
between Dutch and Low Saxon. The suffix *-je* is not common in Low Saxon
dialects around the Lower Elbe. The few words that do have it are pretty
likely to be of Dutch origin, especially where such words have verifiable
Dutch equivalents. In some cases this is verifiable and commonly accepted,
such as in the case of *Matjeshering < Matjes(heern) < Maatjesharing <
Maagdenharing*, a medieval Dutch invention.


Op jeden Fall dücht mi, dat "een, de sik verloren föhlt" _keen_ gode
Grundlaag is, för een Utdruck, de keen "Autonym" is, sünnern en "Xenonym".
De "inner Gemütslage" vun de Frömmen hett de Hambörgers gewiss nix scheert.


Who talked about "feeling" and "mental state"? I sure didn't. As in English
"he *is* lost" can mean "he lost his way" or "he can't function" (e.g. "He's
lost without her/his laptop"). There isn't much of a semantic leap going on
here.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
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