LL-L "Names" 2008.09.08 (01) [E/French/German]

Mon Sep 8 16:29:28 UTC 2008

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L O W L A N D S - L - 08 September 2008 - Volume 01
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From: E Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2008.09.07 (05) [E]

Hey Ron and all,

No, your are quite right. We do not have pog/ge meaning frog in Afrikaans
so it is clearly from LS.

Elsie

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Elsie,

I think we can safely assume that those names are Neerlandized Low Saxon
names,at least Poggenpoel, since (*pogge* >) *pog* 'frog' is Low Saxon.Or is
there a related word in Dutch and/or Afrikaans?

I believe we once had a South African by the name of Swanepoel on the List.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2008.09.07 (05) [E]

Beste Lowlanders, beste Elsie, Wofram...

"Zwaenepoel" is één van de meest voorkomende namen in Oostende, Bredene,
Klemskerke en omgeving. Eén van mijn buren heet trouwens Zwaenepoel. Eén van
mijn vrienden heet Willy Zwaenepoel...

Overigens zijn er in Vlaanderen nog wat namen die eindigen op -poel of
-poels: Evenepoel, Brepoels, Herpoels.

Ook kennen we ook Vandepoele en in het Brugse (de streek van Brugge) de
familienaam Van Poelvoorde.

Een kikker, a frog, is overigens in het West-Vlaams: "e puud". Vlakbij, in
Oudenburg, is er een Puidebroeckstraat. Een deuk, een slag, een stoot,
kunnen bij ons ook "e pugge" genoemd worden. Een eend is in het West-Vlaams:
"en oande".

Antepohl is volgens mij wel degelijk "eendepoel".

Toetnoasteki,

Roland Desnerck

West-Vlaanderen

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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at telenet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2008.09.07 (05) [E]

Hi lowlanders,

In Flanders (Belgium) the familyname of 'Swaenepoel / Zwaenepoel' is very
common, mostly in Western Flanders.

In the website of familynames it reached over a thousand hits (there was
only one person named 'Zwanepoel').

The name 'Poel' also exist, more in the Limburg region.

In the Netherlands i just found the name 'Poel'.

Groetjes,

Luc Vanbrabant

Oekene

 From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2008.09.06 (03) [E]

Hi all,

I suspect many folks took the pond names with when they immigrated into
southern Africa!

Amongst our surnames are Poggenpoel and Swanepoel.

Elsie

From: Wolfram Antepohl <wolfram at antepohl.se>
Subject: LL-L "Names"

[...] I must have been a landscape full of ponds and pools at some time
considering all the "Gausepohls" (goose ponds), "Poggenpohls" (frog ponds),
"Swahnepohls" (swan ponds) and even "Krakenpohls" (crow ponds - they must
have been running out of water animals).

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Elsie,

I think we can safely assume that those names are Neerlandized Low Saxon
names, at least Poggenpoel, since (*pogge* >) *pog* 'frog' is Low Saxon. Or
is there a related word in Dutch and/or Afrikaans?

I believe we once had a South African by the name of Swanepoel on the List.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:

I think we can safely assume that those names are Neerlandized Low Saxon
names, at least Poggenpoel, since (/pogge/ >) /pog/ 'frog' is Low Saxon. Or
is there a related word in Dutch and/or Afrikaans?

Errr...all distant cousins: pogge (LS) ~ frog (E) ~ Frosch (G) ~ vors (B) =
"the hopper". By the way, "frog" must once have been a derogatory term for
the Dutch (frog-land = marshy land).

I believe we once had a South African by the name of Swanepoel on the List.

Swaenepoel/Zwaenepoel seems very typical for Western Flanders (>
www.familienaam.be).
You mentioned "Krakenpohl" earlier on. Are you sure you didn't mean
"Kranepohl"? I didn't find any "Krakenpohl" on the "geogen"-site.

Yes indeed, them Lowlands must have been very swampy back in the days. In
the 13th century, most family names in the Probstei (Schleswig-Holstein)
were related to boggy conditions:

/Brookmann, Broocks, Finen, Kelle, Pohlemann, Rodde, Sode, Sump, Zole/

The dtv-atlas of "Namenkunde" gives this:

*Unter den Wörtern für Sumpf findet sich im Süden am häufigsten *Moos*, vgl.
die vielen bair. /Moser, Moosbrugger, Rohrmoser/.
Nach Norden zunehmend herrscht *Bruch*, niederdt. *Brook*. Dazu gehören die
/Wilden-, Sauer-, Gosebruch ('Gänsetümpel'), Bruchheuser, Uhlenbruck,
Bräucker, Brauckoff, Breukelgen, Bro(o)ck, Papen-, Buddenbrook, Brock(er),
Broek, Brockhaus, -hagen, Brokamp, Bröckmann, Elschen-, Hellenbroich./
Weniger häufig zeigen sich in Familiennamen die Wörter *Pfuhl* mit
/Pfuhler, Pfuller, Puhl(e)mann, Pohlschröder, Krane-, Otterpohl, Poggenpohl/
('Froschtümpel')
oder *Moor* (/Upmoor, Mohrhoff, Morsch, Mörsch(ner)) oder schwäb. /*Motz*/
'Sumpf; Schmutz' (Mot(t)z(h)art/).
**Die regionale Verbreitung der Flurnamen *Venn* 'Sumpf' und *Strut* 'Sumpf,
feuchte Niederung, Wald u.a.' entspricht der Verbreitung der Familiennamen
(Abb. C).
/Fenn(mann), Fehn(emann), van der Venn, Venhuis, Diepeveen, bzw. Testr(e)te,
Ströder, Strudt-, Strot(h)mann, -hoff/.
Im Süden viel verbreiteter als im Norden ist *Brühl*, zunächst 'bewässerte
Wiese' u.ä. vgl.
/Brühl(er), Brügel(mann), Breu(e)l, Breuler, Bri(e)gel, Brö(h)l(ing), Broil,
Brüll(er), Briel, Prill, Bröll(mann), Bröglhoff, Prügl(maier), Prieglhuber/.
*

...name too of our famous Brabantish family of painters "Brueg(h)el" and of
Nobel Prize winner "Louis de Broglie"...which brings me to French "breuil":
*
Provenç. bruelh, bruoil ; anc. ital. broglio, bruolo ; bas-latin, brogilus
et broilus, dans les Capitulaires. **La forme brogilus indique un radical
brog, qu'on trouve dans le celtique : kymri, brog, élévation, gonflement,
signification qui a de l'affinité avec celle de bourgeonner. Le sens de
bourgeonner est dans le portugais a-brolhar, et celui de se soulever dans
l'italien broglio, révolte. Diez remarque que, si le mot est celtique, il a
du moins reçu une empreinte germanique, l'affixe il (brog-il) ne pouvant
être qu'allemand ; aussi signale-t-il le verbe allemand brogen, se soulever.
Breuil est, en France, le nom de plusieurs localités, et Dubreuil un nom
propre fort répandu.*

In short: the root may be Celtic, but the suffix is Germanic.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Thanks, everyone. And it's both of our Lucs in one issue! Nice!

Luc (H), it was Wolfram that mentioned Krakenpohl.

 Names with "pool" seem to be a western feature, going as far east as
Westphalia. Or?

 I have come across the name Pool in North America. I wonder if it's British
originally or if it's adapted Dutch (Poel).

My maternal grandfather's name is Brookmann. He was from the western part of
Western Pomerania, close to the island of Rugia (*R**ügen*). In Low Saxon
pronunciation the "oo" stands for a diphthong as in English "broke". It
corresponds to "au" (pronounced as in "brow") in some dialects. In fact, at
one point we had a Brauckmann on the List, and he was from Westphalia.

Names with "pool", "pond", "swamp" and such seem to be plentiful in the old
Lowlands, as Luc (H) points out. *Brook*, which is related to English
"brook," fits in in that it denotes grassy wetland along a brook or rivulet.

It all could simply be a case of areal spread of names, or it could be a
case of more intricate migration patterns. Bear in mind that Dutch, Flemish
and other Low Frankish people moved eastward with Saxon and German (other
Frankish) people to colonize the then mostly Slavic- and Baltic-speaking
east, some, especially people from what today are the Netherlands, settling
in the western parts of what now is Northern Germany as well. Also, Saxon
people periodically migrated westward, especially onto the West Flemish
coast. Names probably came to be nativized in the process (which also
happened to Scottish names in Western Prussia). And we mustn't forget all
the "Flemish" people that settled in Britain, especially in Wales and
Scotland. Furthermore, enough British people lived in the Continental
Lowlands to warrant building their own facilities, such as their own, now
quite old English church in Amsterdam (one of Amsterdam's oldest buildings,
originally known as Scots Kirk in Amsterdam beginning in 1607:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Reformed_Church,_Amsterdam). Probably
not all of them returned to Britain, and many of them ended up being
absorbed into the general population. My point is that there has been a fair
bit of mixing for a long time, even if we don't talk about overseas
migration.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

* We should have an article about the English Reformed Church of Amsterdam
in our Travel and History presentation series. The church was used, among
others, by the "pilgrims" (including those of the Mayflower) on their way to
North America.
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