LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.09.09 (01) [E]

Tue Sep 9 14:14:22 UTC 2008

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L O W L A N D S - L - 09 September 2008 - Volume 01
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From: E Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.09.08 (02) [E]

Hi all,

Yes, Paul, the Bible was only translated in Afrikaans in 1933 and so the
language in which it was written was referred to as 'Hoog Hollands' by the
old folks, meaning 'proper' Dutch to distinguish it from 'Cape Dutch'. My
parents (who both hailed from the Cape) seldom
used this term except within historical context.

I grew up in the low-class southern Johannesburg suburbs and a mixed
Afrikaans/English was spoken by those for whom neither English or Afrikaans
was their first language, i.e. the Nassifs from Lebanon, the Geordanos
from Italy, old Mr Faros from Cairo, the Segedis from Hungary and the Greek
shop owner from Cyprus.

I suspect the people in Danville were/are not that good in English and it is
always easy to assume people speak a mixed tongue if they use bits of your
language in their language to make you feel at ease and them less
uneducated.

We had friends whose mother could not speak English and she refused to
pretend that she was in any way interested to try. She would have long
discussions in Afrikaans with my dead husband's German mother, who would
fume for not being able to showcase her German, French and
English abilities.  Nothing is more entertaining than to see plaas
poise winning over small town snobbery :-)

Elsie Zinsser

From: Paul Finlow-Bates<wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.09.07 (04)[E]

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.09.06 (05) [E]

Hi all,

Arthur,we do not refer to a Hoë or a Lae Afrikaans. However the teaching
variety is referred to as 'Standaard Afrikaans' to distinguish it
from"Streekstaal" varieties or dialectical variations.

Elsie Zinsser

----------

Hi Elsie,

I seem to recall the term "high" being used by some people to distinguish
the type of Dutch used in some versions of the Bible -"High Dutch".

Mark,

The 70s happen to coincidewith my time in SA (early 75 - end of 79).  It was
commonly held that inplaces like Danville (Pretoria) and some Jo'burg
southern suburbs,the language was a sort of "Englikaans", though I never
heard anyconvincing evidence myself.

However I remember workingin East London where little Afrikaans was spoken
("You live in Pretoria? how dounderstand them Afrikaners?").  Yet their
English was punctuated withAfrikaans expressions - "jy weet?", "nee, man"
and mostsentences ended with "ek se" (can't do the circumflex accent).

Paul Finlow-Bates

----------

From: E Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.09.08 (02) [E]

Hi all,

Paul, more Afrikaans/EnglishAfrikaans include:

-Ja, no, well, fine ('whatever')
-Hoesit (how's it?)
-Ja, nee
-Swaer ('bro', 'dude')

and of course many profanities such as k*k (faeces).

I've recently seen an upsurge of Afrikaans forms in some English newspapers
in cases where government is reprimanded, for instance 'they better remove
their oogklappe' (The Star).

This mode of using Afrikaans as preferred language for negative discourse
was quite typical between the 1970s and 1990s and used to great effect by
white non-Afrikaans speakers to make racist remarks at blacks.

 Elsie

From: Paul Finlow-Bates<wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.09.07 (04)[E]

However I remember workingin East London where little Afrikaans was spoken
("You live in Pretoria? how dounderstand them Afrikaners?").  Yet their
English was punctuated withAfrikaans expressions - "jy weet?", "nee, man"
and mostsentences ended with "ek se" (can't do the circumflex accent).

Paul Finlow-Bates

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Elsie,

"Ja, nee" ("Yes, no") is also a common expression in Low Saxon and in
Northern German.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.09.08 (02) [E]

Paul:

Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

You said:

    The 70s happen to coincide with my time in SA (early 75 - end of 79).
It was commonly held that in places like Danville (Pretoria) and some
Jo'burg southern suburbs, the language was a sort of "Englikaans", though I
never heard any convincing evidence myself.

    However I remember working in East London where little Afrikaans was
spoken ("You live in Pretoria? how do understand them Afrikaners?").  Yet
their English was punctuated with Afrikaans expressions - "jy weet?", "nee,
man" and most sentences ended with "ek se" (can't do the circumflex accent).

I won't challenge that thesis you quote in para 1, as long as the proponent
accepts that the speaker of 'Englikaans' is capable in appropriate context
of turning. to formal English or Afrikaans. I would exclude from this thesis
only technical terminology & jargon in either language beyond the speaker's
ken. Some academics, it seems to me, are too willing to accredit too much
stupidity to the man on the ground. The peasant *can* be presumed to speak
better than he may.

I know what you mean (para 2) & it isn't just the sturdy peonry of East
London. I have heard students of Wits engaged in a heated discussion of the
curriculum with their lecturer. Their language was peppered with Afrikaaans,
& as the debate progressed it got meatier. I happen to know that none of the
conversants were Afrikaans-speaking, hoegenaamd (politics dating back to
their parents' generation).

Van die os op die esel: Elsie, ek gee toe u opmerking betreffende die *
formele* gebruik van  die uitdrukking 'Hogere Afrikaans', maaar, onse
fynproewer van die suiderlike streektale, u moes selfs telkens die
uitdrukking in informele verband gehoor het - of hoe?

Die Uwe,

Mark
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