LL-L "History" 2009.03.12 (06) [E/LS/German]

Thu Mar 12 19:27:17 UTC 2009

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L O W L A N D S - L - 12 March 2009 - Volume 06
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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>

Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.03.12 (02) [E]

> From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Geography" 2009.03.11 (03) [E]
>
> Luc wrote:
>
> Coming full circle: A couple of days ago, a Spanish
> historian claimed
> Christopher Columbus was actually...a Scotsman...named
> Pedro Scotto
>
>  That seems entirely feasible.  But mariners at that time,
> be they
> explorers, pirates, traders or fishermen (the boundaries
> were fuzzy) were a
> bit of a community in their own right.  They had a mobility
> and freedom
> unheard of amongst most mediaeval people, even those at the
> top of the
> social order. "Columbus", whoever he was,
> certainly visited Bristol in
> England, and quite probably Iceland.
[...]

Hello,

Sorry to spoil the fun.
As far as I could follow the 'Columbus-story':
The Icelanders said: Colombus knew about America.
The only ones to know about America were the Icelanders.
So Columbus must have been in Iceland.

Sigh.

vr. gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.03.12 (03) [E]

...and here http://www.vertelln.de/pdf/ulenspeigel_un_stoertebeker.pdf is a
very good piece of today's low-saxon fiction about StÃ¶rtebeker. The Platt is
from western Sauerland/Westphalia. The author mixes the stories of two
Lowlands' legends. Really worth reading, though hard stuff for those who are
not used to westphalian platt :-)

Hartlich!

Marlou

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.03.12 (05) [E/LS/German]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>
Subject: History

Dank di, leve Hanne.

Man rejell Middelsassisch ("MiddelnedderdÃ¼Ã¼tsch") is dat nich. Daar hett een
asig an rÃ¼mdoktert, sachs Ã¼m dat "dÃ¼Ã¼tscher" to maken, un dat de LÃ¼Ã¼d' dat
bÃ¤ter verstaht. Dat is mehrstdeels Å“verdragen, un 'n paar ole WÃ¶Ã¶r in nee
Schrievwies' hebbt se binnen laten (or rindaan), dat 't old laten deit. Den
Slag Kneep un TÃ¼Ã¼nkraam findst faken in "Platt"-Anthologien, de fÃ¶r
"LÃ¼ttlÃ¼Ã¼d'" tohoopsmÃ¤ten wardt. Af un an hett een sachs ook "nee up old"
dichtert. DarÃ¼m: nich allens glÃ¶ven!

To dit "rÃ¼mdoktern" warrt ok "Ã¶versetten" to seggt. Te Text stammt ja -
schrifft Hanne - ut'n Magdeburger Aesop (1402). Un de weer Middelsassisch.
De is von de Anthologie-Makers in modern Platt Ã¶verdragen worrn. Dat is doch
ganz normal.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "History" 2009.03.12 (05) [E/LS/German]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

There were those that for instance sailed only on Hanseatic ships, and the
reach of those was rather limited: the Baltic Sea and a few North Sea ports
â€“ with no destinations that we would consider "overseas" nowadays.

Just a few? They traded along the Norwegian coast, at the British coast and
the continental coast cities were mostly members. They traded with the
French part of the North Sea coast too. I don't know about the Danish coast,
but the Danish coast lacks any major cities to trade with. But I'm quite
sure that there was at least some trade with the minor cities.

To me that's more than a few. They traded with Iceland too. And I read, that
the Hanseatic League once was banned from trading with the Greenlandic
settlements. So they at least must have planned to do so. I haven't read
anything about Hanseatic trade with the French, Spanish and Portuguese
Atlantic coast, but from time to time I look up words in the Middle Low
German dictionary and there are often place names from that region
mentioned, so they must have had regular contact with that area.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "History"

Beste Hanne,

You wrote:

*Das Lied von StÃ¶rtebeker
*
StÃ¶rtebeker un GÃ¶deke Micheel,
De roveden beiden to gliken Deel
To Water un to Lande,
So lange, dat it Gott van Hemmel verdroot;
Do mosten se liden grote Schande.

StÃ¶rtebeker sprook: "Alltohand!
De Westsee is uns wollbekannt;
Dahin wÃ¶lln wi nu faren.
De riken KooplÃ¼d van Hamborg
MÃ¶gt jem eer Scheep nu waren."

Nu lepen se wi dull dahin
In eren bÃ¶sen RÃ¶wersinn,
Bi dat man jem kreeg faten.
Bit Hilgeland in aller FrÃ¶h,
Da mussen se 't Haar woll laten.

De bunte Koh ut Flandern kamm,
Dat Roov=Schipp op de HÃ¶ren namm
Un stÃ¶tt ett wiÃŸ in StÃ¼cken.
Dat Volk se brogg'n na Hamborg up;
Da mussen se 'n Kopp all missen.

Guy in question here who caught StÃ¶rtebeker, must be Simon of Utrecht, who
was said to be born in Flanders:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_of_Utrecht

Could become mascotte of Lowlands: born in Flanders, name â€œof Utrechtâ€ and
once honorary mayor of Hamburg. If only he would have wed a Scottish lass *;=).

*But such were not the manners of seafaring folk I guess.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Marcus:

To dit "rÃ¼mdoktern" warrt ok "Ã¶versetten" to seggt. Te Text stammt ja -
schrifft Hanne - ut'n Magdeburger Aesop (1402). Un de weer Middelsassisch.
De is von de Anthologie-Makers in modern Platt Ã¶verdragen worrn. Dat is doch
ganz normal.

"De roveden ...", "to Lande", "... mi[t] kÃ¼hlem Mote" usw. laatt mi nich
besÃ¼nners "modern".

Hanne schreev' "Mittelniederdeutsch" daar Å“ver, nich "Aus dem
Mittelniederdeutschen Ã¼bersetzt". Dat gifft up de List Minschen, de den
Ãœnnerscheed nich wÃ¤ten doot. Daar wÃ¤gen harr ik dat tobottert.

Se schreev':

Lied von StÃ¶rtebeker - Magdeburger Aesop

Wat de Magdeburger Aesop is, dat wÃ¤Ã¤tt hier nich jedermann.

So, fair go and steady on, mate!

Apparently the Liekedeelers did go down to Spain, Marcus.

Luc:

If only he would have wed a Scottish lass *;=).
*But such were not the manners of seafaring folk I guess.

What do you mean were "not the of seafaring folk"? To marry Scottish lasses?

By the way, many have romanticized StÃ¶rtebeker's life and have given him a
type of Robin Hood status, as reflected in the annual StÃ¶rtebeker Plays on
the Isle of Rugia (RÃ¼gen). And they have quite vilified poor Simon. His
statue in Hamburg was decapitated in 1985:

http://tinyurl.com/simonvanutrecht

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

•

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