LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.06 (02) [EN]

[Lowlands-L List]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 06 November 2009- Volume 02
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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.05 (02) [EN]

Hi Luc:

You said: “Oh yes, 'file' does exist in Dutch...primarily it means 'queue',
'traffic-jam'...”

By the way, how do Dutch-speakers pronounce “file” meaning traffic jam?

Regards,

Mark Brooks
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From: DAVID COWLEY <DavidCowley at anglesey.gov.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.05 (03) [EN]

Thanks Luc (and hope you enjoy the book!). The Dutch examples you give
 are (like others in Afrikaas and so forth) fascinating. Clearly other
Germanic languages have kept using native root 'nuts and bolts' to an
extent well beyond that of today's English. Whilst I've always thought
the more native approach to be good for clarity and ease of
understanding, it would be really interesting to find out whether there
is any evidence as to how use of more native forms might shape speakers'
perceptions of their worlds, and expression thereof. Maybe an idea for
some research - any Lowlands members aware of whether this has been
looked at?

David

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From: DAVID COWLEY <DavidCowley at anglesey.gov.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.05 (01) [EN]

I think Ron has hit on a lot of key points about why languages take on
loanwords, and perceptions of 'classiness'. Notes on French in 1800s of
great interest - perception here here in UK is that many French folk are
none too pleased about having lost the role of European 'Lingua Franca' to
English, whilst many English are (somewhat smugly) glad ...

Fascinating to think how French words and phrases must have become trendy
and 'in' amongst many ambitious English folk after 1066 - a modern example
to compare must be the spread of English in India today. There were a few
Bollywood films on TV here, and I recall that a recently made one about
well-to-do society families had the characters peppering their Hindi speech
with English words, sayings and whole sentences. Contrast with another film,
much older, about peasant folk, which had few if any English words at all.
Local tongues in many other former British Empire lands going the same way -
is that just an inevitable fact linked to human nature to want to break new
ground, be different somehow? Its sad to see so many tongues threatened.

The point about the many layers of meaning one can bring out by choosing
from the vast English wordhoard is a good one of course. I guess the most
realistic scenario in which some updated OE words might get back into
English today would be to broaden these choices yet more: one might end up
using 'afterfollower' in certain situations, but 'successor' in others, just
as happens with many other native/ loanword choice pairs now. I think that's
a realistic possibility - though it would need a few influential
trendsetters to start off and help establish use.

Note on Latin:  It's likely that, though seen as debased Latin, Norman
French nevertheless was plainly closer to Latin and therefore thought less
Barbarian than OE by Norman French speakers, and so higher up the
pecking-order of sophistication. This must be a lot to do with the idea you
touch on, that native English words sometimes don't seem to carry the weight
needed in some situations - we seem conditioned to that now, whereas OE
writers weren't.
(B.t.w., don't forget that Greek was the big learned tongue in much of
Eastern Europe for a long time.)

I'd just like to add that it's really great to get to discuss some of this
stuff with interested folk - it really does help one get one's head around
some of these really tough issues!

David

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Lexicon

Thanks, Mark and David.

David, not everyone here may agree with your interest in (re)introducing
Germanic roots, but I think what's really important is that you have made us
think about these things and learn a thing or two from each other's input.

Talking about "input," now there's an example of a Germanic-rooted new(ish)
word. In print it first appeared in 1893 but really started to take off in
the mid-20th century. Scots and Scottish English *input* in the sense of
'contribution' first appeared in 1753. Another example off the top of my
head is "underdog" which first appeared in 1887. (All according to the *Oxford
English Dictionary*.)

On a somewhat lighter (if not somewhat silly) note, Dutch *achtervolger*,
like Old English *æfterfylgere*, thus "afterfollower," strikes me as
sounding a tiny tad silly. How else do you follow but after? It suggests the
possible opposites **voorvolger* and **forefylgere* respectively, which
would be oxymoronic, wouldn't they? But then again, you could push it and
suggest they could mean something like "previous successor."

Talking about "Germanic," "Latinate" and language history, to most English
speakers the classification probably is nameless and just a vague notion,
yet they represent tangible sociolinguistic layers in their daily lives.
Since the history of English has been dropped as a subject in many or most
schools the majority of Americans are not even aware that English is a
Germanic language. People are surprised if not incredulous when I tell them
that. (It probably doesn't help that some people, wanting to sound
sophisticated, say "Germanic" instead of "German," so this spreads confusion
and ignorance.) I have heard people insist that English developed from Latin
or French, and they seemed to think I was cuckoo (or perhaps a rampant Nazi)
for insisting it was essentially Germanic, which to them had a negative
ring. (I've had similar reactions when I explained that Yiddish developed
from German, which in my earlier, less patient days led to more than one
altercation in bookstores in which Yiddish textbooks [with English titles]
were mixed in with Hebrew ones. Grrrr! People actually assume that Yiddish
is a sort of Hebrew because it's used by Jews and is written with Hebrew
script.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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