LL-L "Language politics" 2010.08.02 (05) [DE-EN]

Tue Aug 3 02:45:10 UTC 2010

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*L O W L A N D S - L - 02 August 2010 - Volume 05*
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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.08.02 (04) [DE-EN]

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.08.02 (03) [DE-EN-NDS]

P.S. Marcus, you wrote:

"Was erwartest du, sollte sich ändern, wenn man fremdsprachige Prüfungen
abschafft? Wer macht denn solche Prüfungen? Ich würde zwei Gruppen erwarten:
a) frische Neuankommlinge, die noch nicht die Gelegenheit hatten, die
einheimische Sprache zu lernen, b) Hausfrauen, die in ihren Kontakten stets
auf die Familie und Landsleute der alten Heimat beschränkt waren und deshalb
nie veranlasst waren, die einheimische Sprache zu lernen."

This is funny, your ideas seem quite plausible, but I was thinking of *young
men*. They are the most problematic group (in many respects :-)) -- and at
the same time the group where the driving license is most valued. So many
people think the license would be a fine lever arm to bring them to the
books. Some even say a driving license should not be granted without a
Hauptschul graduation. This might rapidly bring down the rate of male school
drop-outs, not only those of migrant roots. -- As to your a), people who
don't know what Einbahnstraße means should really not be granted a driving
license, I think; as to your b) -- these women are the most eager to learn
german and get on. I am working as a computer and math teacher in migrants'
integration and training projects, you know, and have seen many classes of
these gifted and deeply frustrated women, exploding with accumulated
eagerness to learn. No problem *there*!

But young men - even if they are Hauptschul dropouts - usually _have_
visited a German school and are able to speak German. Their German is not
elaborate enough to satisfy the high-brow Bildungsbürger but they should
usually be able to take a driving test without having problems in
understanding the words. I'm actually quite sure that the vast majority of
the 18 year old males of Turkish descent living in Germany and who have
lived in Germany for several years (who are no newcomers) know the German
word Einbahnstraße better than the Turkish words tek yönlü yol.
Einbahnstraßen are part of their daily life while tek yönlü yol is just part
of their Randwortschatz (what's that in English? perhaps something like
'distant passive vocubulary'). That's also the reason why nobody would take
a Low Saxon driving test. Any info (laws, regulations, instructions etc.)
related to traffic will be in German. Doing the test in Low Saxon is good
for nothing, it just increases your chance to fail the test: a single oddly
translated technical term can make you misinterpret the question. (That
doesn't mean I am opposed to Low Saxon driving tests! I would certainly
support it if people had the choice. But to become meaningful the laws,
regulations, instructions etc. need to be available [and widely distributed]
in Low Saxon too.)

Marcus Buck

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.08.02 (04) [DE-EN]

Some more thoughts that were triggered by the discussion about driving
tests:
Does Low Saxon have a future? At the moment my answer certainly is: None at
all.

Why is that? Low Saxon still has millions of speakers, that should be a good
base for survival, shouldn't it?
The problem is that I can choose between German and Low Saxon as my favorite
language and as my personal relevant language but I cannot choose between
German and Low Saxon as my main language of coming to terms with life. If I
choose German as my personal language that's all I need to come to terms
with life. If I choose Low Saxon as my personal language I still need German
to come to terms with life. This imbalance creates a steady drain towards
German. It's just a matter of efficiency. Why purchase two units if one unit
is enough to do the job?

The only way to rescue Low Saxon is to enable people to come to terms with
life with Low Saxon only. If a newborn child can go to a Low-Saxon-only
kindergarden, go to a Low-Saxon-only school, go to a Low-Saxon-only
university, enter a Low-Saxon-only job, cope with the authorities, agencies
and administration in Low Saxon (the Low Saxon driving test is part of it),
buy groceries in a Low-Saxon-labeled store, use a computer with all the
relevant programs localized in Low Saxon, consume Low Saxon media and die
without ever having learned German, then Low Saxon will have a future again.
Low Saxon cannot be rescued by cultural activists, artists and hobbyists,
the language can only be rescued if the state supports the language. Not by
lip service and fancy charters but with real money and real actions.

Marcus Buck

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Language politics

Thanks for your interesting and, as usual, erudite and well thought out
remarks, Marcus. I personally think they have a lot of merit.

You wrote:

I'm actually quite sure that the vast majority of the 18 year old males of
Turkish descent living in Germany and who have lived in Germany for several
years (who are no newcomers) know the German word Einbahnstraße better than
the Turkish words tek yönlü yol. Einbahnstraßen are part of their daily life
while tek yönlü yol is just part of their Randwortschatz (what's that in
English? perhaps something like 'distant passive vocubulary').

I would propose “marginal (passive) vocabulary/lexicon” for *Randwortschatz*
.

This might be an acute problem only in cases of rarely used Turkish words of
Persian, Arabic or French derivation. The meaning of most purely Turkish
constructions tend to be quite transparent to Turkish speakers even at first
encounter. This applies in this case also: Turkish *tek yönlü yol* (one-way
street, literally “single directional way/road/street”, plural *tek yönlü
yollar*). But I’m sure you’re right as to usage. I have listened to
German-born Turkish young people talk amongst themselves. In Turkish they
might very well use *Einbahnstaße* (one-way street) as a loanword, and in
German they might use Turkish loanwords for things related to their
Turkish-speaking sphere. (Since I only visit once in a blue moon, it seems
rather intriguing to me when all this is tinted by a rather noticeable
Hamburg accent.)

It is a matter of category. If they were talking about their adventure
driving during a visit to their ancestral town in Anatolia or Thrace, they
may very well use *tek yönlü yol*, while in a German context they are likely
to use *Einbahnstraße*. (I am not claiming that this is really so, am just
trying to illustrate what I have observed happening is such cases.)

When my mother, who knew next to no English, visited me in Australia she
insisted on calling a bathroom shower *Shower* (or *Schauer*) in German
rather than using the usual German word *Dusche*. I suppose this is because
showers look and work slightly differently in Australia and Germany. Since
the sound of *shower* is like that of German *Schauer* (“rain shower”) there
is a connection. So she exercised something that I would call “cultural
contextualization” in her choice of vocabulary. I believe -- nay, have
observed -- that this is a common phenomenon among immigrants.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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