LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.08.11 (04) [EN-NL]

Thu Aug 12 01:02:37 UTC 2010

=====================================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 11 August 2010 - Volume 04
*lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
=====================================================

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Language varieties"

Beste Marcus,

You wrote:

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Do you think there is a possibility of Western Flemish and Zealandic being
influenced by Saxon? There has been talk of Saxons, who began haunting the
Continental and British North Sea coasts well before settling in Britain,
settled on the coasts of what are now Belgium and adjacent parts of the
Southern Netherlands and Northern France.

Of course, this common *-n* thing in Western Flemish, Zealandic and Saxon
could very be coincidence. But there are other common features, such as
/peird/ *peyrd* (vs Hollandic *paard*) for ‘horse’.

Perhaps there are influences but I don't think this is one of them. '-en' is
the original form and '-e' the innovation. So '-en' in Western Flemish,
Zealandic and Saxon is just a common lack of innovation.

'peerd' vs. 'paard' is the same. 'ee' is the more original form and 'aa' is
a Hollandic innovation. One could think that 'paard' is a reflection of the
Latin source 'paravederus' which has 'a', but with forms like 'waard' and
'haard' which clearly never had an 'a' historically the more logical
explanation is that 'paard' is from an earlier Dutch word 'peerd' (which
indeed is attested in older Dutch). The Western Flemish/Saxon similarities
are again just common lack of innovation.

You're right about the conservative nature of peripheral dialects.

In my opinion, along the North Sea coast, there may have been a dialect
continuum from Northern France to Denmark before the Völkerwanderung. Mostly
Frisian, here and there with pockets of Saxons. Then the Völkerwanderung
started in earnest and when the Franks moved down the Rhine to the West,
they actually hit upon this Frisian wall, finally driving a wedge in it,
splitting the Southwest from the Northeast for good. This particular
marriage of Frankish on a Frisian substrate then gave rise to Hollandish.

In cultural terms though, Hollandish didn't get popular right away. First
the cultural center of gravity was in Flanders for centuries, then in
Brabant and finally in Holland in the 17th century. The central dialects of
Brabant, and especially Holland, have always been more innovative than
others, mainly because they acted like secular and religious power carriers,
compared with southwestern and northeastern dialects, traditionally having a
more agricultural user base.

Even today, it's pretty obvious that most of the innovation within Dutch
Belgian dialects radiates from Antwerp. Viewed from the South, Antwerp
behaves like an outpost of the "Randstad"...even though few, if any, Antwerp
locals will acknowledge this.

Which brings me to another feature that Western Flemish may have in common
with Saxon. Speakers from Holland (and Antwerp by extension ;=)) often not
only tend to speak loud, but also...a lot. In Lower Saxony, I had the
impression that just like in Western Flanders, natives were more silent and
often kept a low profile. Then again, this may also have something to do
with the contrast between city dwellers and countrypeople. However, when I
was in Helsinki (OK, maybe not exactly the Lowlands, but still a capital),
folks were speaking very slowly and very quietly. If ever, they spoke, that
is ;=). I guess our man in Helsinki, Antero, may know the reason why.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

----------

From: Joachim <Osnabryg+Lowlands at googlemail.com<Osnabryg%2BLowlands at googlemail.com>
>

Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.08.11 (04) [NL-EN]

Op 11.08.10 19:27, schreef Helge Tietz:

a small village near Bordesholm in the Rendsborg district which is also
called Brugge (although in German spelling with the Umlaut). Heist
(Knokke-Heist) is another example, which also exists in Holsten. Perhaps it
would be interesting to investigate whether even more place-names share
similarities.

Niet te vergeten: Osnabrügge!

Terloops hartelijk dank, Luc, Marcus & Ron, voor jullie voorlichtingen
betrocken het suffix-"e(n)" in Nederland!

Luc Hellinckx:

 Ge schreeft:

1. Is de verwandeling van het suffix "-en" in [ɘ] ook Algemeen Beschaaft
Nederlands (ABN)?

 Zeker. Komt doordat ABN toch vooral beïnvloed is geweest door de centrale
(= Frankische) dialecten van de Lage Landen. Brabants en Hollands zijn per
slot van rekening (Neder-) Frankische dialecten. Als je wil horen hoe de
"Rheinische Fächer" in deze context een rol spelen, klik hier:

http://gaer27.uni-trier.de/CLL/Sequenz6/start.htm

Over deze webstek kwam ik ook tegen "Niederländisch/Niederdeutsch (Venlo)":
"Et gebeurde in daen tied", de kerstbootschap in Venlo-Laaglands, grondig
voordelig, ook vanwege de nabijheid met Westfaals! Maar het schijnt dat deze
deel, juist nadat ik hen opropen had, er uitgenomen is.

 Met echt-westfœlsken »Goutgaun!«

joachim

--

Kreimer-de Fries

Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow

=========================================================
Send posting submissions to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
Send commands (including "signoff lowlands-l") to
listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands.list at gmail.com
http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/group.php?gid=118916521473498<http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#%21/group.php?gid=118916521473498>
=========================================================
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20100811/45207eab/attachment.htm>