LL-L "Language promotion" 2010.01.08 (02) [EN]

Fri Jan 8 16:31:16 UTC 2010

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L O W L A N D S - L - 08 January 2010 - Volume 02
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From: DAVID COWLEY <DavidCowley at anglesey.gov.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2010.01.07 (03) [EN]

Some very interesting bits on Low Saxon, Welsh, Catalonian. Here are a few
more thoughts for the pot ...

A factor which is often rightly said to have been very important for Welsh
lang is translation of Bible in 1500s: not only did this come as an
officially, royally approved translation, but Welsh HAD to be used in
churches in Welsh speaking areas, by law. This was to be a key factor in the
later high literacy and written tradition that was to develop in Wales over
the next several hundred years. I understand that Luther's translation of
the Bible helped form a basis for modern 'High' German. Had there been a Low
Saxon version at the time, this tongue would have been a lot stronger. It
seems sad that an independent Low Saxony (nor Friesland) didn't develop, or
that 'Low German' didn't get to be the basis for standard German - it would
have been that much closer to English (and maybe these states would have
been as much against the Nazis as were the Dutch).

I agree very much that Low Saxon situation is more like Scots; and Welsh
situation is more like that of Basque. Having said that, there are some
cases where relatively closely related tongues both get official recognition
- Catalan after all is a sister tongue of Spanish (C has 7 million speakers,
more than Danish - this is also a big factor in its strength, as well as the
large degree of self-government). Frisian in the Netherlands has a much
better official standing than Low Saxon (or North Frisian for that matter)
in Germany.

Its often forgotten that these minority lang situations are not standing
still - there can often tend to be a mix of factors pulling different ways;
so, whilst Welsh is now used more than ever in schools and in official
documents, the recent vast choice of new English digital TV stations has
left the Welsh Channel much more outnumbered than it was during the 1980s-
90s (when for many, it was one of only four channels at all!). Also, I think
there's a loss of many traditional ways of expression in Welsh as older folk
pass on, and the Welsh of the young tends to have more English-influenced
idiom and often whole phrases. Still, its very strong in NW Wales (where I
live), and in many areas there is a mainly Welsh primary education for
children (the only way to get out of which would be to pay a lot for a
private school and/or be willing to drive a long way to a more Anglicised
area).

In today's world, it does seem to be the case that unless you have some kind
of independent or near-independent state, minority/ lesser-used langs are
normally going to tend to loose ground to the dominant one. If there's
little feeling of special identity, and everyone's happy with being 'modern
German', just how many folk are likely to be speaking Low Saxon and North
Frisian in fifty years' time, compared with today?

David

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
 Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2010.01.07 (03) [EN]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

A couple of days ago I responded to Marlou's query regarding differences in
> Low Saxon and Welsh language activism. (Please see below.) I take the
> liberty of adding a few notes.
>
>    * Of course there is the aspect of relative closeness. Welsh is a
>      Celtic language, is thus related to English only on an
>      Indo-European level and is thus not at all mutually intelligible
>      with English. There is no doubt about its separate language
>      status. Scots and Northumbrian, however, are closely related to
>      English on a "sister language" level. This makes it fairly easy
>      to "dismiss" them as being dialect groups of English, especially
>      when they show various degrees and types of English influence.
>      This latter case is similar to that of Low Saxon /vis-Ã -vis/
>      dominant Dutch and German. In other parts of Europe it is
>      similar to cases such as Kashubian and Slavic Silesian
>      /vis-Ã -vis /dominant Polish (the latter also /vis-Ã -vis/
>      dominant Czech), Ruthenian (Rusyn) /vis-Ã -vis/ dominant
>      Ukrainian, Jamtlandic /vis-Ã -vis/ dominant Swedish, VÃµrÃµ
>      /vis-Ã -vis/ dominant Estonian, and a good number of "regional"
>      Romance languages /vis-Ã -vis/ dominant Portuguese, Spanish
>      (Castilian), French and Italian.
>
>    * The cases of Catalan (including Valencian and Balearic) and
>      Galician in Spain may be seen as a case in between the above and
>      that of Welsh. Andalusia, Catalonia, Galicia and the Basque
>      Country are considered "historical nationalities" of Spain.
>      There is a fairly strong sense of separate ethnicity, and
>      Catalan, Galician and Basque respectively are co-official with
>      Spanish within these official regions. During the era of fascist
>      rule this idea ran counter to the ideology espoused at that
>      time, and the use of indigenous languages other than Castilian
>      was prohibited. However, especially Catalan ethnic, linguistic
>      and even national consciousness has endured and is going pretty
>      much full steam nowadays, even though the Catalan-speaking
>      regions are not separate countries. Catalans have simply never
>      internalized the view that theirs is a language inferior to
>      Castilian or to any other language for that matter. Of course,
>      it helps that Catalan is the official language of an
>      independent, albeit tiny country: Andorra.
>
>  The most recent developments in Catalonia are quite stunning, at least to
me. On 13 September 2009 the municipality Arenys de Munt held an inofficial
local referendum in which the voters were asked: "Do you agree on Catalonia
becoming an independent, democratic and social State of law, integrated in
the European Union?"

It resulted in 96.2% voting Yes, only 2.3% voting No, with a participation
rate of 41%. After this many more municipalities held inofficial
referendums. So far 168 municipalities have done so. There was not a single
one where less than 80% voted Yes. The outcome so far is 94.89% Yes and
3.21% No. Other municipalities will vote in two more rounds in February and
April.

Of course the participation rate is rather low with 27.41% (the vote is
totally unofficial) and the voting areas so far are mostly rural (e.g.
Barcelona has not yet agreed to hold a vote). But it's still quite
impressive: almost 95% support for full independance!

As I said, the vote is just a kind of opinion poll and has no legal meaning.
The Spaniards even say it's unconstitutional to hold this vote as the
Spanish Constitution wouldn't allow splitting the country. So to allow
Catalonian independance the Constitution needs to be changed which calls for
a two third majority in the parliament (of course two third in all of
Spain). That won't happen without massive international pressure.

<
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonian_independence_referendums,_2009%E2%80%932010
>

Marcus Buck

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
 Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2010.01.07 (04) [EN]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com>>

 This is where the hairy problem of orthography comes in. The majority of
> speakers wouldn't be able to tell a phoneme and a grapheme from their own
> backsides. They try to write "as it sounds," i.e. "phonetically,"
>
They write "as it sounds" but based on a very limited notion of what it
means to "write as it sounds". People from the Netherlands have learnt Dutch
in school and they think that "oe" is a good representation of the sound
/uË/. But from the context of Low Saxon this is just nonsense cause the
vowel that is pronounced /uË/ in Dutch and written "oe" never developed into
/uË/ in Low Saxon (in the great majority of Low Saxon dialects).

People from Germany have learnt German in school and they only know the
sounds /aË/ written "a" and /oË/ written "o". But Low Saxon knows the sound
/É”Ë/ which is somewere between /aË/ and /oË/. Historically it developed from
the same sound that is represented with "a" in most Germanic languages and
as there is no native /aË/ it would be completely meaningful to write this
sound "a". Still many people write it "o" cause they base their orthography
on the phonetic rules of the German language they learned in school instead
of the phonetic rules of Low Saxon.

This problem can only be overcome when more people learn to read or write
Low Saxon (by media exposition or in school) and people start to realize
that the (Dutch or German) set of phonetic mapping rules they learned in
school is not the only possible set of phonetic mapping rules.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de <mailto:marless at gmx.de>>

 Subject: LL-L "Language promotion" 2010.01.03 (02) [EN]
>
> Hello Ron,
>  your detailed and interesting explanation still has a mark in my email
> inbox, but I didn't have the time to answer appropriately. It is very
> plausible that the uncompromising Welsh spirit results from their having
> been a country and people in their own right, even somewhat isolated. As to
> northern Germany, you are right that today people put more stress on
> "Germany" than on "northern". Even I don't feel like a separatist or
> anything like it. Separatism in Germany, if at all, is mostly attributed to
> Bavarians :-) But I don't feel being ethnically different from them or, say,
> the people on the upper Rhine. In former times there were all these tribes,
> but where would we come...?
>
Well, I have to admit: I totally feel ethnically different from Bavarians or
Rhinelanders. Of course there are many levels of ethnic identity. And the
level of ethnic proximity strongly depends on which levels of ethnic
identity you choose to compare. The more you look at the surface and at
recent developments, the more proximity you detect. But if you go more to
the core you will find big differences. And not only random differences, but
systematic ones.

Mating techniques in discos are the same all over Germany. The interior
design of supermarkets is the same all over Germany. Christmas markets are
popular all over Germany, a phenomenon totally German. The Arbeitsagentur
works the same in Flensburg and in Garmisch. Place signs are the same yellow
color all over Germany. Radio announcers tell the same jokes all over
Germany. All over Germany people read Bild-Zeitung and all over Germany
people believe the lies Bild is telling. All over Germany public post boxes
are yellow and cabs are ivory. The Lynx fragrance is known as Axe all over
Germany and Germans take a "FrÃ¼hstÃ¼ckchen" at half past nine in the morning.
Most Germans know "Bernd, das Brot" or the "HB-MÃ¤nnchen". All Germans know
Goethe and Schiller and most people have either read "Die Physiker", or the
"Schachnovelle", or "Die verlorene Ehre der Katharina Blum" in school.
People know "Good Bye, Lenin" and they have learned about the Limes in
school. Germans collect stamps and wifes use rolling pins when their
husbands come back home late from the pub. All over Germany the
"Kastelruther Spatzen" and the "Amigos" are popular. And so are
"Griechischer Wein" and "WeiÃŸe Rosen aus Athen".

I have all this stuff common with a Bavarian or a Rhinelander. Many of these
things I don't have in common with a Dutchman. Most of these things I don't
have in common with a Japanese. But what does this mean for my ethnic
identity? Ethnicity is about roots. Ethnicity is something I get from my
forefathers. But all this stuff above I got from TV and other mainstream
media or were ruled by the state.

If we just look at stuff we got from our forefathers our common base with
the Bavarians shrinks dramatically. Typical "German" stuff like Lederhosen,
Dirndl, Oktoberfest, WeiÃŸwurst is totally demotic in Bavarian but cannot
traditionally be found anywhere north the Main river. The traditional folk
mentality is very different ("rheinische Frohnatur" vs "norddeutscher
Brummkopf" vs "bayrische UrgemÃ¼tlichkeit"). The traditional languages are
very different. Traditional Northern carnival ("Faslam") was celebrated in a
common way all over Northern Germany and very different from the South.
Today it is almost forgotten and southern traditions creeped in
("rheinischer Karneval" and "Fasching"). I'm sure, if Northern Germany had
become a state of its own at the same time as the Netherlands did, "Faslam"
would be a national holiday in this hypothetical state and would be totally
different from the southern festivities.

Rye bread is another example of a very distinct Northern element.
Traditionally the North ate only rye bread on a daily basis and wheat bread
("Stuten") was for holidays. In the south pure rye bread was very unpopular
and they ate mixed bread or wheat bread. I have done some research into this
and it seems there really is a "rye bread border" that roughly coincides
with the Low Saxon language area (of course it's hard to tell exactly, cause
no researcher ever tried to draw "bread maps").

The Low Saxon house was another example of an ethnic element that clearly
suggests that the North formed an ethnic unit. The southern border of the
distribution area of the traditional Low Saxon house exactly coincides with
the language border. Of course traditional house types have absolutely no
meaning for today's life, but they still show, that there was some kind of
ethnic border that certain "memes" (to use a very generic term) were unable
to cross.

Or the traditional dish "Heetwigg" (HeiÃŸwecke"). Known all over Northern
Germany, but nowhere in the south.

There are many more examples of cultural elements that show that the north
is a distinct entity. Whether this distinct entity should be called
"ethnicity" or whatever else depends on your point of view. Low Saxons
certainly don't lack a basic ethnic stock, but they lack a modern _culture_
that is able to transmit and steadily re-animate its ethnic stock.

I at least, judging from my own critical mind and not judging from "what
other people think", feel a much stronger "ethnic relationship" with the
Dutch than with the (High) Germans.

  Moreover, today nobody is so very much isolated. Life mixes people up much
> more, forcing them to follow work and move, resulting in intermarriage and
> all sorts of fraternisation, even with Bavarians. Any ethnic difference
> _inside_ Germany has long faded into local colour. It would be hopeless to
> base a cultural issue -- such as the preservation of a language -- on this
> ground. In fact, reading your post I found myself musing over the "feeling
> of ethnical difference" and whether I ever felt it. I have travelled very
> little, but the world mixes in our cities. Knowing so many people so
> different and at the same time so much alike and so much like me and
> watching our cultures mix makes me lose the sense of difference. Maybe I see
> it all too much on a personal level, and maybe I am confusing nation,
> culture and ethnicity. But I feel the overlap of cultures is growing, which
> for the cultures may be not so good, while on a personal level it is just
> fine.
>  Now, how can we preserve a language and culture under such circumstances?
> Neither going separatist nor melting up in globalized indifference? It must
> be a narrow path, and time is working against us. It cannot be on an
> ethnical basis, everybody must be free to join or adopt a culture -- or
> parts of it.
>
Ethnicity cannot just be adopted, but culture can of course. And after you
have adopted a culture you can transmit it to your children and it can
become ethnicity for them.

 Something new will necessarily result. And a culture must be attractive to
> survive. Welsh seems to be attractive. What can Low German do? I would love
> to know.
>
Welsh is a beautiful girl. Low Saxon is a beautiful girl too. But while
Welsh dresses up and shows in public, Low Saxon is sitting at home in her
pyjamas. Nobody can be attracted to you if they don't know you. So the
recipe is: show yourself in public as much as possible. Please don't be
angry on me about saying the same dumb thing over and over again when I drop
the buzzword "TV station" here ;-)

Marcus Buck

•

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