LL-L "Grammar" 2010.03.15 (04) [EN]

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*L O W L A N D S - L - 15 March 2010 - Volume 01*
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From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2010.03.14 (04) [EN]

Hello Ron,

in "a number of ... is" there is just a gap between grammar and facts.
People feel the plural, although grammar demands singular, and they put the
verb in plural, as is natural. Grammar may blame itself for this. "A great
number of people is ready to do this." Now who is ready, the number or the
people? -- We have a similar problem in German with numbers. "1 Million
Menschen ging zur Wahl." Now who went, the million or the people? Numbers do
not vote, people do. It is natural that many say "...gingen...". A paradox
is that anything but an exact million is plural already: "0,5 Millionen
Menschen gingen zur Demo." No Problem here -- the half million is pural,
while the full million is not :-) Same applies to billions etc. Is it the
same in English?

Hartlich

Marlou

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From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2010.03.14 (04) [EN]

Ron wrote: “I expect “is” to be the default in Scots, since “is” is often
used with plural forms.”



Something that you mentioned has brought to mind a point I’ve been noticing
lately. I think the dialect spoken in the southern USA has even heavier
Scots influences that I previously thought. So, much of what I see here on
the list in and about Scots seems so familiar to me. So, yes, I believe I’d
say “there is a number of books on the shelf about Goethe” first. Of course,
“there are” doesn’t sound wrong to me, I just think I’d say “there’s” or
“there is” before I’d say “there are.”



I realize that what I said probably doesn’t surprise you, but
it has surprised me. I knew my grandparents’ speech bore a lot of
Appalachian (Scots in the New World I suppose) characterics (both sets of my
grandparents came from Tennessee), but I didn’t realize how much.



Mark Brooks


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From: jmtait <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2010.03.14 (04) [EN]

Ron - re: your examples as follows:

(01) There *are* *several* *books* on the shelf.
(02) *There *is* *a few* books on the shelf. (substandard)
(03) There *are* *a few* *books* on the shelf.
(04) *There *is* *a number of* books on the shelf.
(05) There *are* *a number of* *books* on the shelf.
(06) There *is* *a bunch of* books on the shelf.
(07) *There *are* *a bunch of* *books* on the shelf.

(08) There *is* *a great number of* books on the shelf.
(09) (*)There *are* *a great number of* *books* on the shelf. (?)
(10) There *is* *a small number of* books on the shelf.
(11) (*)There *are* *a small number of* *books* on the shelf. (?)


I'm afraid that my client downloaded your post with many control codes, so I
haven't deciphered what you're actually asking. I can point out, however,
that in the traditional Shetland dialects, all of these phrases would be
introduced by a common 'dae'r...' which is the same irrespective of number,
and therefore there would be no issue!

What I used to call 'Shetlandic' - in the sense of a common perception of
the Shetland dialects - can now be definitively said not to exist.

In actual speech in Shetland, you get both the traditional 'dae'r' form and
the English 'der's' form. Some speakers use one, some the other, and some
may possibly use the 'der's' form for singular and the 'dae'r' form for
plural, as if it were a contracted English plural form. You might also get
the singular form used in plural contexts - 'der's twa fock missin' - as
commonly in colloquial forms of English.

With regard to 'dialect' - as promoted by proponents in Shetland - it can be
said to have no grammar, in the sense that those who write it typically have
no, and certainly no common, perception of anything other than standard
English and variation from standard English. 'Dae', as in the form 'dae'r'
is not recognised as the separate word it certainly is, as it does not exist
in standard English; and 'dae'r' is typically conflated in writing with
English 'there' and 'they.' Written forms thus reflect the spoken
'continuum' (as it is expressed by Scots language pundits) between
traditional spoken Shetland, standard English, and colloquial English, which
however tends to be conformed more closely to standard English grammar for
writing purposes in the absence of any perception of the traditional
Shetland pattern.

John M. Tait.

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Grammar
Thanks, everyone.

Jim, here are the examples without "adornments":

(asterisks marking ungrammatical constructions) ...

(01) There are several books on the shelf.
(02) *There is a few books on the shelf. (substandard)
(03) There are a few books on the shelf.
(04) *There is a number of books on the shelf.
(05) There are a number of books on the shelf.
(06) There is a bunch of books on the shelf.
(07) *There are a bunch of books on the shelf.

But I believe--and please correct me if I’m wrong--that “number”
*can*determine plural if it is modified; e.g. ...

(08) There is a great number of books on the shelf.
(09) (*)There are a great number of books on the shelf. (?)
(10) There is a small number of books on the shelf.
(11) (*)There are a small number of books on the shelf. (?)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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