LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.08.20 (02) [EN]

Sat Aug 20 23:27:49 UTC 2011

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 L O W L A N D S - L - 20 August 2011 - Volume 02
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From: Luc Hellinckx luc.hellinckx at gmail.com
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"

Beste Ingmar, Marlou, Jacqueline...and other Leeglanners,

Ingmar, you wrote:

 Btw: in Belgian Dutch/Flemish, one hears very often: ik zie u graag, lit:
I'm seeing you with pleasure, meaning I love you/je t'aime. One can also
say: zie me graag! = love me!

Sure, but that's more like the uptown variety of "Ik zie u gaarne": 'k zien
a gèèrn. "Graag" does not exist in traditional dialect, it's
gaarne/geerne/gèèrn/gèère all the way ;=) When "love" is not (yet) in sight,
one would rather say "Ik heb je gaarne", "'k Ém a gèèrn"

Usually (Van Dale), the meaning of "houden van" is explained as a figurative
use of "houden" in the sense of "to stick", for example:

"Met een beetje lijm zal dat wel houden" ~ "It'll stick with a bit of
glue"..."It will hold"

However, I seem to think that along the way another (older) word "houde" has
played a role too.

HOUDE - MNW (Middelnederlandsch
Woordenboek)<http://gtb.inl.nl/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=MNW&id=18185>

"Houde" (or hulde for that matter...same word, but a recent reconstruction),
is a word that was very popular during the Middle Ages, it was often used to
describe the respect that a liege should pay to his lord (also from a layman
towards god). Cf. German Huld/hold:

Deutsches Wörterbuch von Jacob Grimm und Wilhelm
Grimm<http://germazope.uni-trier.de/Projekte/WBB2009/DWB/wbgui_py?lemid=GA00001>

By extension the word can also mean "plain friendly", check Grimm's second
meaning, how it's used in Beowulf and what Goethe and Schiller wrote.

"Hulde doen/hou(de) doen" meant "trouw beloven"...small step to falling in
love methinks ;=)

The word also features in the official slogan of the city of Ghent: "Hou
ende trou", a translation of Latin "Fides et Amor"...there we have it:
"love"...fidelity and love...same boat ;=) When you love somebody, you sort
of want to pay tribute to him/her. Just my 2 ¢ of course ;=)

On a sidenote, we also have a saying in Brabantish "dat gaat over zijn
hout/houd" (da gààt over zön aat), when you want to point out that something
can no longer be tolerated. I'm not sure, but this "hout/houd" may be the
same word too, another possibility is relationship with English "a hold", as
in "keeping a firm hold on something".

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

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From: Arend Victorie victorie.a at home.nl
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.08.20 (01) [EN]

Moi Leeglaanders,

Ik bin ’t hier mit Marlou iens.

Ok bij oonz in Drenthe is ‘t (Ik holle van oe) nog jong.

De Drent van hiel vrogger höl ’t miestal bij <Ik mag oe geern zien>.

Of < Ik wul ’t geern mit oe perberen>

Goodgaon,

Arend Victorie
*
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*From: Pat Reynolds pat at caerlas.co.uk
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.08.20 (01) [EN]

Steven Hanson said:

Ø  The idea of ‘holding in high regard’ makes me think of Catalan, wherein
one might say ‘t’estimo’ for ‘I love you’.  ‘Estimo’ makes me think of
English ‘esteem’, which leads ‘holding someone in high esteem’, which brings
me back full circle to Dutch ‘houden van’.  :-D

I had thought that it paralleled the English ‘to cleave to’.  Or ‘be
attached to’.

Cheers,

Pat

---

Pat Reynolds

It may look messy now ...
         ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).

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From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong Dutchmatters at comcast.net
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.08.20 (01) [EN]

Hello Marlou, Ron, Steven, Igmar and Henry

Talking  about the different ways people use to say they ‘love’ each other
brings me back to the old question: Do we make our language or does our
language make us.

‘Love’ can be described as anything from the exalted to the profane. It even
can be distorted hate (just think how women (maybe men too) who have been
tormented by their torturers can say “But I still love him”) ‘To love’ can
have many meanings (agape, eros, familiality etc. etc). If the Dutch say “
ik houd van jou”, maybe they see their loved ones more like a cherished
object. After all one of the character traits we are being accused of is
that we as a nation are materialistic!  Don’t forget that we do not have the
differentiation between ‘like’ and ‘love’. We say “ik houd van mijn
kinderen” with the same ease as we say “ik houd van een boterham met kaas”.
If you *like* a person, you say “ik vind hem/haar wel aardig”.

There is also the question of Are we ‘allowed’ to express certain feelings?
I think Marlou hit the nail on the head with her remarks about
understatement. To ‘esteem’ a person is something entirely different from
“having a crush on somebody”. ‘Verliefd zijn op iemand’ has little to do
with ‘esteem’ but much more with hormones etc.etc. Still they are all
aspects of love and depending on the culture in which we live different
aspects are allowed. The parents who have their daughters circumsized are
convinced they do this out of love, but here their culture is clearly more
important than their daughter.

What do you guys think?

Jacqueline BdJ

Seattle Wa, USA

PS. I just finished reading “The Forty Rules of Love” by Elif Shafak. It is
a flawed book but it gives a clear insight into how the Sufis practice it.

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From: Mark and Ruth Dreyer mrdreyer at lantic.net
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.08.9 (01) [EN]

Beste Henry

Subject: LL-L Love
I'm sure you'll be swamped with input from all the other Lowlands languages,
so I might as well present the Afrikaans perspective as well. In the Taal we
say for "I love you." = "Ek het jou lief." In this I think we are nearer to
the German.

"Ek hou van jou." is nearer to "I like you." If a serious boy tried that to
a serious girl about a serious relationship he'd get a flea in his ear, if
he was just plain lucky. Say it straight out or not at all... For most of my
community of course it is the latter case. Mind you, you could offer it as a
confession of intent to a close friend about your girlfriend, "Ek hou van
haar", even though you'd never, ever, till Death do you part, bare your
heart to her.

"Your beloved" is "Jou beminde." & "Lovers" are "Minnaar en minnaares." Mind
you, to say something like "Ek min you." would get you at least a raised
eyebrow, perhaps  " 'n klap teen die bek", "a clout on the (animal) mouth".
On the other hand, I have heard a dedicated engineer of the Afrikaans
language seriously propose it's institution in common use. Won't work: "Ek
min jou." so crassly put puts one in mind of something somewhat cruder than
that which one offers to a loved one...

Groete,
Mark

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From: Henry Pijffers henry.pijffers at gmail.com
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.08.19 (02) [EN-NL]

Jacqueline wrote:
>
> I think the question is: do you say it?
>
I don't know about the rest (of the Twentenaren), but in my family
nobody ever said "ik hou van jou" or "ik vind je lief". By never I
truly mean never in the strictest sense of the word. Never had a Saxon
speaking loved one either, So the "Ik hold' van u" is my personal
concoction actually.

But I'd still like to know, cause just because others don't use it,
doesn't mean I can't.

Ron wrote:
>
> I would say:
> Written: Ik heff di leef.
> Phonemic: /ʔik hev diy leyv/
> Phonetic: [ʔɪk hɛf di ˈlɛɪf]
>
> Cf. German:
> Ich liebe dich. (I love you [lover])
> Ich habe dich lieb. (I love you [relative, friend, etc.])
>
Yes, I could say "Ik heb u leef", just like we say "ik heb je lief" in
Dutch, but that's along another line. I'm wondering if there's an
equivalent to "Ich liebe dich" in Saxon.

love,
Henry

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Idiomatica

Henry, Lowlanders,

Let me put it another way:

German:
Ich liebe dich. *= romantic*
Ich habe dich lieb. *= platonic*

Low Saxon (DE):
Ik heff di leef. *= romantic*
(Ik bün di good = romantic archaic)
(Ik bün di todaan = romantic archaic)

Marlou suggested:
Ik heff di geern.
Ik kann di good lieden.
And I add:
Ik hold wat/vẹẹl vun di.

Within a modern (Germanized) context, I see these as marginal, as able to
express either romantic or platonic love, depending on the relationship.
Similar to German *Ich habe dich gern*, they can in some contexts simply
mean 'I like you'.

My hunch is that within traditional (i.e. not touchy-feely) Low Saxon
culture platonic love was/is rarely if ever expressed verbally, and romantic
love was/is expressed in a way that seems understated from a German
standpoint.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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