RE: ¿Sextants?

[Swanton, M.]

Gerardo,
Regarding the "sextants" in the Mixtec codices you might want to look at Maarten Jansen and Aurora Perez' 1983 article: "The ancient Mexican astronomical apparatus: an iconographical criticism" that appeared in the journal Archaeoastronomy (vol 6, pp. 89-95).
Regards,
Mike Swanton
 
 
 


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From: Nahua language and culture discussion [mailto:NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU] On Behalf Of Gerardo Aldana
Sent: zaterdag 28 mei 2005 0:49
To: NAHUAT-L at LISTS.UMN.EDU
Subject: ¿Sextants?


Hola Nahuat-leros,
first I apologize that my question contains none of the linguistic sophistication of the last 
discussion that was derived from an astronomical reference (re: Chimalpahin--although superficially (given my knowledge base), there may be a connection in the line quoted below containing the term "teutlatollj" cf. H Kammler's remarks).  In fact, my question comes from utter ignorance.  Be warned.
 
In "Aztec Thought and Culture", León-Portilla makes an intriguing statement referring to Sahagún's "Colloquios y doctrina christiana":
 
"It is said that the astronomers used their hands in the manner of sextants to measure the movements of the stars.  They could calculate with precision the exact time the sun would rise and set each day." (paperback edition, 1990, pp. 27-28)
 
The reason this is important to me is that I have been working (mostly with Classic Maya astronomy, iconography, and hieroglyphic texts) on an argument concerning the practice of Mesoamerican celestial observation.  Naturally, I start with Nuttall's (and Aveni's) recognition of the Central Mexican codex imagery showing two crossed sticks functioning as an observational instrument, but I haven't done much else with Central Mexican sources here (ok, so there's also a connection to Netzahualpilli's 'observation deck' (via Torquemada, via Aveni)).  In my interpretation, though, (differing from Aveni's), the codex images of hands on sticks (with star icons on the fingertips) fit right into the same understanding of the crossed sticks instrument.  So I hope its clear that León-Portilla's quote is of some importance.  Here's the problem.  
 
León-Portilla's reference is to Sahagún via Walter Lehmann, "Sterbende Götter und Christliche 
Heilsbotschaft" (Stuttgart, 1949), which is a Nahuatl transcription with German translation.  My 
German language consultant (this is what I get for trying to get by only with Romance languages...) claims that León-Portilla's reference is not to be found in the German translation (and I haven't found such a reference in Spanish translations of the Nahuatl).  Logically, then, the reference to a hand as a sextant would have to come from the Nahuatl text itself, which I quote below.  Any takers on León-Portilla's reference here?
 
 
Lehmann, p 96:
B
Auh inhin totecujyoane,
ca oncate in ocno techiacana,
in techitquj intechmama
ynjpampa in tlaiecultilo,
ca in toteouâ ynjntlamaceuhcavâ
cujtlapillj ahtlapallj
 
in tlamacazque, in tlenamacaque.
 
Lehmann, p. 97:
auh in quequetz<al>cova mjtoa.
in tlatolmatinjme,
auh in jntequjuh in qujmocujtlauja
in ioalli in cemjlhuitl,
in copaltemaliztli,
in tlenamaqujliztlj
in vitztlj in acxoiatl,
 
in neçoliztli.
in qujtta in qujmocujtlauja
yn johtlatoquiliz in jnematacacholiz in
      ilhujcatl,
in iuh iovalli xelivi.
Auh in quitzticate,
in qujpouhticate,
inqujtlatlazticate in amoxtlj.
in tlilli, in tlapalli
in tlacujlolli quitqujticate.
Ca iehoantin techitqujticate,
techiacana, techotlatoltia:
iehoantin qujtecpana
injuh vetzi ce xivitl
iniuh otlatoca in tonalpoallj,
auh in cecempoallapoallj
 
qujmocujtlauja,
iehoantin yntenjz incocol
 
y mamal in teutlatollj.
 
Auh in tehoantin
ca çâ ye iyo totequjuh
(in mjtoa) teuatl tlachinollj:
 
auh çâ iehoatl ypan titlatoa,
titocujtlauja yn jtequjuh
yn cujtlapillj yn atlapallj,
inic concuj yn jaztauh yn jmecaxicol.
 
auh injvic yn jmecapal,
 
Lehmann, p. 98:
inic ontlalilo in tlecujlixquac
 
ynic tetlacavati.
 
Ma oc tiqujnnechicocan
yn tlamacazque, in quequetzalcoa,
ma tiqujmacaca
in jhiyotzin yn jtlatoltzin
in tlacatl totecujo.
An iehuantin qujlochtizque
qujcuepazque
yn otoconcujque, yn otoconanque:
amelchiqujuhtzin amotzontecontzin
tiquevazque totecujyovane,
maxicmocevilican
yn amoyollotzin y amo nacayotzin:
ma yeh ypan in amopetlatzin y amocpaltzin

Any and all assistance will be greatly appreciated and duly noted in publications resulting from this study.
 
Thanks in advance from a Mayanist wading in (unfortunately still) unfamiliar waters,
Gerardo Aldana
gvaldana at chicst.ucsb.edu

Henry Kammler <h.kammler at EM.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE> wrote:

        Hola,
	
        if |cecenteotlatoca| is derived from /tla'toa/ it would rather translate as 
        "had talked in reference to their respective gods" (or?)
        "god talk" would be /teotlatolli/ with root-final /l/ = *|cecenteotlatolca| 
        "each by god talk", I guess.
	
	

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