Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder

Fri Apr 11 15:57:56 UTC 2014

Ø  "Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice"
Actually, I don’t think the challenge is that unreasonable.  The context is simply that a person is encountering events that are increasingly strange, unusual and difficult to explain, and exclaiming upon that.  Such a situation could occur in any society.

The term ‘curious’ throws us, because its primary meaning in English is ‘eager to learn about something’.  But in this context, the meaning is ‘strange’ or ‘weird’.  For Omaha and Ponca, I think the appropriate term would probably be “àži” (“ázhi”), which also carries the meaning of ‘different’, as well as being used as the standard negator (‘not’).

Next, we have the syntax of the expression.  In English, the increasing strangeness is indicated through a device of compounding two instances of the ‘strange’ adjective in comparative form, using “and” as a linking conjunction.  But Omaha/Ponca, to my knowledge, has no comparative form of adjectives, no general word for “and”, and in any case would not use that compounded comparative device to indicate that a quality is increasing.

Ideally, I think an O/P speaker would reduplicate the adjective and add a continuant marker, probably “(h)náⁿ”, to get the sense of increasing quality.  Unfortunately, I don’t know that “ázhi” reduplicates.  We do have the word “àži-roⁿroⁿ” (“ázhi-thaⁿthaⁿ), which I have recorded as meaning ‘different kinds’.  I think “thaⁿthaⁿ” is a device that implies “reduplication of the preceding lexeme”.  I’m not sure if it is appropriate for this case, however.  Mostly it shows up with numbers and similar terms to suggest grouping according what is indicated by the relevant lexeme, e.g., “by threes”.

So for Alice’s exclamation, I can think of three possibilities.  If “ázhi”, ‘strange’, reduplicates, then we could have:

            ázhizhi hnaⁿ

Else if “thaⁿthaⁿ” works here, we could have:

            ázhi-thaⁿthaⁿ hnaⁿ

Else if we want to be conservative and fake the reduplication by using “shi”, ‘again’, we could have:

            shi ázhi hnaⁿ

If we are doing O/P contemporary with Lewis Carroll, we would want to add “i he” at the end, given that Alice is a female speaker and is speaking emphatically.  The emphatic part can’t really be conveyed by the story frame “cried Alice”, because there doesn’t seem to be any word for “cry out in emphatic speech” in O/P.  There is only “é”, ‘say’, and “báⁿ”, ‘scream’ or ‘yell’.  The latter wouldn’t be used to describe a manner of speech, so we would have to use the ‘say’ word.  Since it is a story of factually dubious content, we would want to use “biama” after ‘she said it’.  Alice, as the active subject, would probably take “ak ͪ a” as her article.  So my three guesses are:

            “Ázhizhi hnaⁿ i he!” á biama Alice ak ͪ a.

            “Ázhi-thaⁿthaⁿ hnaⁿ i he!” á biama Alice ak ͪ a.

            “Shi ázhi hnaⁿ i he!” á biama Alice ak ͪ a.

Of the three, I like the first one best if “ázhizhi” is actually a word.  Otherwise, I’d probably go with the third.  The best recourse would be to ask a native speaker.

If any Omaha-Poncanist can improve on this, suggestions are welcome!  Otherwise, we might have to concede this round to Sapir and Whorf.   :)

Cheers,
Rory

From: Siouan Linguistics [mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Bryan James Gordon
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 1:38 AM
To: SIOUAN at LISTSERV.UNL.EDU
Subject: Re: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder

I agree with Jimm. Even if you dig into the context enough to translate it, the context belongs to a certain segment of English-speaking society during a certain period of time. Contemporary English speakers find Lewis Carroll hard to wrap our brains around, because his vision is not only a fantasy world, but it's based on obsessions and paranoias that are not as prevalent today, or are not imagined in the same way anymore. It's hard to translate stuff like that into any language, let alone a language from people with a very different view of the world. It's a more distinguished request than pet names and such, but it's not the kind of translation work I would prefer to spend my time on. Why don't people ask us to translate Microsoft Word, or a K-12 curriculum, or something important?

Eyáⁿ níⁿ-a Mark? Éska-naⁿ wathíshkaⁿ-taⁿga thigíni maⁿníⁿ shaⁿsháⁿxti kaⁿbthégaⁿ. Wakáⁿda wíbthahaⁿ maⁿbthíⁿ.

2014-04-10 17:28 GMT-07:00 Jimm Goodtracks <jgoodtracks at gmail.com<mailto:jgoodtracks at gmail.com>>:
Ho, Mark!  Pi dana ke shige ho ritawe hanax^un ke.

I find the quote to be rather curious.  However, I haven’t any immediate thoughts that come to me as to how one would render it in Baxoje – Jiwere.  In part, the problem with any effective translation of this quote, is the lack of context.  Just what is becoming evermore curious?  The answer is not yours to give, but it does await clarification of Mr. William Wolkowki and for what application does he want a translation of this Alice in Wonderland statement.

Meanwhile, vaya bien  en su tratamiento y su cura de su enfermidad.  Híne  bróge  rígrahiwi ke.  Wakánda nat^úrigradan mína ho.

Jimm G. Goodtracks
Báxoje Jiwére Language Project
PO Box 55
Tecumseh, KS 66542

Ukínadheda wawáŋarana, ich^é nahá, injé etáwe waróxiñeda adáñešdan – wógiñi kigróšige íthgare ke.
“In the middle of resisting, the language got caught, only showing her face in ceremony, like she’s ashamed of her scars.”
(www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FUgDutdauQ&feature=share>

From: Mark Awakuni-Swetland<mailto:mawakuni-swetland2 at UNL.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 5:10 PM
To: SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu<mailto:SIOUAN at listserv.unl.edu>
Subject: Here is a little curious inquiry for all of us to ponder

Aloha all, something for the list to consider. Many thanks!
Mark A-S

Received from william wolkowski 2009zww at gmail.com<mailto:2009zww at gmail.com>

ALICE IN OMAHA

Dear Colleague,
For the sesquicentennial in 2015
I am preparing a polyglot graphic study
of this quote from chapter 2
in Carroll's Alice in Wonderland
"Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice"
If you wish to include it in this study,
would you please help me
with a translation?
Thank you.
Best regards
Wolkowski
Sorbonne Universites UPMC

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Bryan James Gordon, MA
Joint PhD Program in Linguistics and Anthropology
University of Arizona
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