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Tue Feb 7 01:41:05 UTC 2006

Cherie,

I'm not an expert at this but I don't think standardized spelling needs 
to be thought of as a dumbed down version.  If, like you say "drive" can 
be modified by an adverb, the tongue and head positions, then that very 
thing can be included - that there are adverbs, adjectives, etc, that 
can be used to add additional meaning.  Perhaps, rather than include the 
head/tongue position in the sign for "drive", it could come either 
before or after it.

This could lead to a completely different way of looking at some parts 
of a sign - that they could be separated out according to the parts of 
speech they represent.  Thus, some head, body and, perhaps, hand 
positions could be presented separate from the sign they modify.

Bill

Cherie Wren wrote:

>Once you institute standardized spellings, you lose a
>lot of the variability that is inherent in sign
>language:  unless you come up with a way to include
>all the 'inflections' possible for each sign... 
>Because so much information is carried in the head and
>body movements... but then again, written English
>can't convey the 'tone of voice' and lots of the
>emotional meaning.  I am thinking of all the TeachASL
>folks who want to challenge everything--- "well, can
>you write THIS?"  As of right now, we can, but if we
>go to standardized spellings, some of that would go
>away, except in the research version...
>
>English has relatively standard spellings, because
>there are relatively standard pronounciations...  You
>say the word 'fly' the same, whether you mean an icky
>bug; getting on a plane, terrified; getting on a
>plane, eagerly; or RUN AWAY!  In Sign, If I use a
>different facial expression, I change the meaning of
>what I sign.  Facial Adverbs for example...  If I sign
>'drive' with my tongue sticking out and my head cocked
>to the side a little bit, that changes the meaning to
>'drive carelessly.'  How would standardized spellings
>incorporate things like that? 
>
>Does that make sense?
>
>cherie
>
>--- Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Hi Charles and Everyone -
>>Although a spell checker would be great in the
>>future, to do that, we  
>>would have to have a dictionary that doesn't
>>change...right now the  
>>Community SignPuddles are places for people to
>>experiment with how to  
>>write, so we have many versions of the same sign
>>because it is a  
>>practice place...
>>
>>To get a spell checker to work, it would have to
>>access a dictionary  
>>that is stable and not changing...it implies that
>>there are  
>>standardized spellings...This new SignText is more
>>like the old  
>>typewriters that were not computers...There were no
>>spell checkers on  
>>a basic typewriter before...but people could still
>>compose a nice  
>>document...so I guess we have to walk before we can
>>run!
>>
>>All this will come in time....we just need to give
>>it more than a  
>>week - ha!
>>
>>And SignText is not just for email...it is more for
>>creating  
>>sentences as diagrams for Word documents etc...so it
>>is a useful tool  
>>that will evolve and be used in many different
>>ways...I find it quite  
>>fast to drag and drop symbols and create signs with
>>the proper facial  
>>expressions...When we access a dictionary we have a
>>problem, because  
>>the dictionary cannot have the facial expressions
>>that are proper for  
>>a sign in a certain position in the sentence...so
>>dictionaries  
>>accessed for spell checkers in English may be a
>>little simpler, but  
>>ASL has fluctuating facial expressions...
>>
>>Val ;-)
>>
>>-----------
>>
>>
>>On Feb 6, 2006, at 1:36 PM, Charles Butler wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>I guess I'm looking for a "spell checker" feature
>>>      
>>>
>>so that when I'm  
>>    
>>
>>>typing directly, I dont' have to reinvent the
>>>      
>>>
>>wheel when I'm not  
>>    
>>
>>>sure how to spell something.
>>>
>>>Charles
>>>
>>>Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org> wrote:
>>>Hello Charles!
>>>Exactly! Cherie and Ingvild wrote email in
>>>      
>>>
>>sentences with  
>>    
>>
>>>Lanes...without any need for a word gloss...This
>>>      
>>>
>>changes the  
>>    
>>
>>>experience of writing email in SignWriting,
>>>      
>>>
>>because now we are  
>>    
>>
>>>getting to real Sign Language grammar
>>>      
>>>
>>issues...writing directly in  
>>    
>>
>>>the movements of signed languages, with no spoken
>>>      
>>>
>>language  
>>    
>>
>>>involved...and that is really great...The other
>>>      
>>>
>>email program in  
>>    
>>
>>>SignPuddle is still there to use, but it had been
>>>      
>>>
>>criticized by  
>>    
>>
>>>those who do not want to use glosses to write
>>>      
>>>
>>signed languages, so  
>>    
>>
>>>now we have both for all kinds of people!
>>>
>>>Actually Steve did develop a way to access the
>>>      
>>>
>>SignPuddle  
>>    
>>
>>>dictionary, while composing in SignText, but since
>>>      
>>>
>>SignText just  
>>    
>>
>>>was released in this new version, less than a week
>>>      
>>>
>>ago, I have not  
>>    
>>
>>>had the chance to write the manual yet...
>>>
>>>Steve - Can you teach everyone how to use
>>>      
>>>
>>SignPuddle to get some  
>>    
>>
>>>signs into a SignText sentence?...
>>>
>>>Frankly, I hope that most people will compose each
>>>      
>>>
>>sign directly in  
>>    
>>
>>>SignText without thinking in glosses...that is the
>>>      
>>>
>>whole point of  
>>    
>>
>>>SignText...
>>>
>>>And, SignPuddle already has a way to search for
>>>      
>>>
>>signs with  
>>    
>>
>>>different handshapes...but not related to email.
>>>      
>>>
>>When we type email  
>>    
>>
>>>in English we do not search for words in a
>>>      
>>>
>>dictionary...we type  
>>    
>>
>>>directly, and that is what SignText gives us...so
>>>      
>>>
>>there are  
>>    
>>
>>>different programs for different purposes...
>>>
>>>Amazing isn't it?...smile...
>>>
>>>Want to try it? Go to:
>>>
>>>SignText
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>http://signbank.org/signpuddle/signtext/signtext.html
>  
>
>>>Val ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>PS. What is the difference between SignPuddle,
>>>      
>>>
>>SignBank, and SignText?
>>    
>>
>>>SignPuddle...Create signs online, add them to a
>>>      
>>>
>>dictionary, search  
>>    
>>
>>>the dictionary, send email using glosses
>>>
>>>SignText...Create Sign-Sentences and
>>>      
>>>
>>Sign-Documents online or  
>>    
>>
>>>offline, send email, no glosses involved!
>>>
>>>SignBank...Create, Print, Search and Publish
>>>      
>>>
>>Multi-Lingual Sign  
>>    
>>
>>>Language Databases...SignBank can be used to print
>>>      
>>>
>>thick  
>>    
>>
>>>dictionaries....like a websters
>>>      
>>>
>>dictionary...easily and  
>>    
>>
>>>automatically, once the database is filled with
>>>      
>>>
>>signs...
>>    
>>
>>>Both SignText and SignWriter are ways to create
>>>      
>>>
>>documents...
>>    
>>
>>>Val ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>Valerie Sutton
>>>Sutton at SignWriting.org
>>>
>>>Tech support by voice or video...
>>>Make an appointment by email ;-)
>>>
>>>1. SignWriting
>>>http://www.SignWriting.org
>>>Read & Write Sign Languages
>>>
>>>2. SignBank
>>>http://www.SignBank.org
>>>Sign Language Databases
>>>
>>>3. SignPuddle
>>>http://www.SignBank.org/signpuddle
>>>Create & Share Signs Online & Offline
>>>
>>>4. MovementWriting
>>>http://www.MovementWriting.org
>>>Read & Write All Body Movement
>>>
>>>SignWriting Literacy Project
>>>The DAC, Deaf Action Committee
>>>Center For Sutton Movement Writing
>>>an educational nonprofit organization
>>>Box 517, La Jolla, CA, 92038, USA
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>    
>>
>
>
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