Movement to the side

Thu Nov 27 20:04:22 UTC 2008

Hi Val and everyone,

    Val, thank you for your wonderful comment.

    I think so.  I already mentioned that it is very important for me to understand how to acquire contraints of linguistic and learn phonological analysis for different SW symbols.  You mention that the difference is between "beginning readers and writers" , and "skilled readers and writers."   That is a good question!!!  A Deaf teacher and Deaf students are beginning readers and writers.  They don't prefer to use mixed planes if using movements to right or left sides.  

    Hand waving

    André

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Valerie Sutton 
  To: SignWriting List 
  Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 2:12 PM
  Subject: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side

  SignWriting List
  November 27, 2008

  Just a quick thought from me...

  I believe it is related to "beginning readers and writers" and "skilled readers and writers"...

  When we first started writing, with 10 native ASL signers, back in the 1980's, we all started writing in Receptive mode, and horizontally and from left to right...

  Then, with experience, the writers requested Expressive and writing down in vertical columns...but that did not happen immediately...it took experience and lots of writing to become aware of what was needed...

  Then, we began thinking that if the hands are parallel to the Floor Plane, then the side arrows should be on the Floor Plane too with single stems, and the planes should not be "mixed"...

  But that is not true...over time we learned that, as we became more skilled in reading and writing literature, that a skilled reader or writer is able to mix planes without a problem...

  So you might find that in time, the same Deaf students who did not want to mix planes in the beginning, will change their minds, over time, when their skills improve...

  It is my experience, that mixing a single stemmed arrow to the side, with the hands parallel to the Wall plane, is not a problem for skilled readers and writers, whether they are Deaf or hearing, whether they are young or old...

  That is our experience so far...

  Of course, arrows to the side can be either double stemmed or single stemmed and they are not wrong either way...but just remember the skill of the student is part of the picture...this will be important for your research...

  Val ;-)

  -------

  On Nov 27, 2008, at 10:54 AM, Gagnon et Thibeault wrote:

    Hi Adam, Stefan and eveyone,

        Adam and Stefan, thanks for your comments.

        Stefan, I prefer a single-stemmed arrows (left or right side).  But I respect that Deaf teacher and Deaf kids prefer the hand on the wall plane (double-stemmed arrows) (only right or left side) and other hand on the floor plane (single-stemmed arrows) (only right or left side).  Deaf teacher told me that Deaf students were succesful to read fast (B) than (A).

        Hand waving

        André
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Stefan Wöhrmann
      To: 'SignWriting List'
      Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 12:42 PM
      Subject: AW: [sw-l] Movement to the side

      Hi Andrè,

      I agree with Adams comment – it doesn’t matter. – smile – >>From my point of view – I prefer single stemmed arrows if the movement is directly to the left or right side. But this attitude developed over time – I guess it is a matter of clear structure .. .

      Sometimes I hesitate if I should vote for top – down or frontview  if a  handorientation allows  both options ... and in the past we discussed this point that almost always both hands in a sign should be written – (if possible) from the same point of view ( both hands top down, or both hands front view) But even here I decide to violate this “principle” if anything seems to prevent the reader to understand intuitively and alost without any hesitation.

      So – my opinion – left and right movement – (if they are meant to be straight to the left and straight to the right)   c a n   be written with both arrows ( double stemmed and sinle stemmed) but in these cases I always vote for the single stemmed arrows.

      Stefan ;-)

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      Von: sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu [mailto:sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu] Im Auftrag von Gagnon et Thibeault
      Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. November 2008 18:04
      An: SignWriting List
      Betreff: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side

      Hi Adam and everyone,

          Yes, (A) and (B) are correct or the same.  But Deaf students'thinking is different from your thinking.  For example, Deaf students develop a phonological analysis for different SW symbols (hand on the floor or wall plane and single-stemmed arrow (floor plane) and double-stemmed arrow (wall plane)).  Deaf students found that they are more comfortable to read (B) than (A) because of the same wall planes.  It is very important for me to understand how to acquire and learn a phonological analysis for Deaf kids, not Deaf adults.  For example, a Deaf kid who is 7 years old is able to read (B) more easy than (A) according to Deaf teacher.

          I don't doubt that older kids are able to read either (A) and (B) than younger kids.

          Regards,

          André

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Adam Frost
        To: SignWriting List
        Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 11:03 AM
        Subject: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side

        The difference between using the single stem arrow and double stem for side movements is just writers preference. Either is still correct. So (A) and (B) are the same. (C) and (D) have the hands on the floor plane which is different from (A) and (B). I am not surprise that the deaf students are talking about floor and wall planes. ;-)

        Adam

        On Nov 27, 2008, at 7:15 AM, "Gagnon et Thibeault" <atg at videotron.ca> wrote:
          Hi Val, Adam, Stefan and everyone,

              It is interesting that Deaf students talked about a front view and a top view.

              See my attached diagram.  This is my writing (A) (DEFENDRE (French) = INTERDICT (English).  Deaf students are confused to read it because they stopped reading and figured out it.  Several Deaf students explained that the two hands are parallel with the front wall (front view), and the movement to the side with the single-stemmed arrows is viewed from the floor (top view).   They suggested that the two hands are parallel with the front wall (front view), and the movement to the side with the double-stemmed arrows is viewed from the front wall (front view) (See the attached diagram (B) because Deaf students read it easily (the same front view).  They told Deaf teacher if they use the two hands which are parallel with the floor, they use the movement to the side with the single-stemmed arrows whhich is viewed from the floor (top view) (See the attached diagram (C).  They don't want to use (D) since they aren't conformtable to read it.

              I can't believe that Deaf students understand a concept of the front view and the top view.

              I adopt Deaf students'proposal.

              Regards,

              André

          <SW DEFENDRE.doc>

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