AW: [sw-l] Movement to the side

Valerie Sutton signwriting at MAC.COM
Fri Nov 28 15:33:09 UTC 2008


SignWriting List
November 28, 2008

Just a side note...

There is an old photo gallery of some of Stefan's Deaf students  
writing SignWriting, which I posted years ago on the web...the first  
Deaf child is named Irina, and she too is a native signer (is that  
correct, Stefan?...I hope I remember correctly about that)...of course  
all these children are now close to being grown-up...but they  
certainly can use SignWriting! Great photos, Stefan...thanks for  
sharing these with us long ago...

Deaf children in Germany using SignWriting
http://www.signwriting.org/germany/germany01.html
http://www.signwriting.org/germany/germany02.html
http://www.signwriting.org/germany/germany03.html

So Andre, if you have photos that you have permission to share with  
us, of your Deaf students and teachers using SignWriting in your  
research project in Quebec, I will be very happy to post them...they  
will be valuable for future research, just as Stefan's photos are...

Val ;-)

-----------



On Nov 28, 2008, at 7:03 AM, Gagnon et Thibeault wrote:

> Hi Anne-Claude, Stefan, Kelly Jo and everyone,
>
>     Anny, Stefan and Kelly Jo, thanks for your comments.
>
>     Stefan, you wrote : That is the same principle as hearing babys  
> learn to talk and deaf
> babys learn to sign.  I have to say : No.  Don't forget that if a  
> deaf infant is born to hearing parents (95%), he or she receives no  
> language input (sign language and spoken language), delayed langauge  
> input, or inconsistant language input.  He or she has the limits on  
> the language learning imposed by the cognitve and neural maturation  
> during development.  For example, in general, "some" Deaf kids who  
> are 7 to 9 years old have been learning  his/her sign language at  
> the first time since 3 or 4 year.  They have still been a poor sign  
> language.  However, a SW helps them develop their skilled sign  
> language. They are able to read it slowly because of the delayed  
> cogntion and delayed language.  They can understand a sign for  
> DEFENDRE (B), not (A). It is not always a word "beginner" or  
> "beginning readers and writers".  If a Deaf infant is born to Deaf  
> parents (5%), you are right.  I answer: Yes.  One Deaf kid who is 4  
> years old has been learning his sign language since birth.  He  
> learned fast a SW last  year. But, his Deaf family moved to another  
> city.
>
>     Hand waving
>
>     André
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Anne-Claude Prélaz Girod
> To: SignWriting List
> Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 6:20 AM
> Subject: Re: AW: [sw-l] Movement to the side
>
> I think the graphic below is really usefull to help understand,....
> and then anyone feel free to chose the arrow he prefers for lateral  
> movements
> have a nice week-end everyone
> Anny
>
>
>
> Le 28 nov. 08 � 12:14, Stefan W�hrmann a �crit :
>
>> Hi KJ and list,
>>
>> well from my point of view there is no need for any change in this  
>> matter. � smile �
>>
>> And Andr�, well during my workshops I often understand that the  
>> beginners support themselves with some guidelines that help them to  
>> learn with less insecurity. That is fine � so no problem if they  
>> prefer double stemmed arrows � From the teachers point of view I  
>> would not insist too much on this but just accept their writing  
>> ( if they really would write themselves that would be a tremendous  
>> achievement) �At the same time I would follow the principles we  
>> know from other fields of instructions � just do not repeat what  
>> you yourself would judge to be wrong � but instead offer your  
>> �other� solution. That is the same principle as hearing babys  
>> learn to talk and deaf babys learn to sign. Why not accept special  
>> favorite options to beginners ... smile ... no problem with that.
>>
>> Within this context � well I have my doubts � perhaps this habit  
>> to vote for double stemmed arrows is connected to the teaching  
>> method. Often SW-instruction courses start with hands parallel to  
>> the wall � so all these movements up and down and circular and  
>> diagonal ... are associated with double stemmed movement arrows.
>>
>>>>
>> It is always a critical point if you have to explain the writing of  
>> a flat hand pointing directly to the right or left � now the  
>> participants understand that it is up to you to see this� hand  
>> from top down or from frontview �and this will lead to the  
>> association that if you vote for frontview you are better of with  
>> the double stemmed arrow whereas the single stemmed arrows would  
>> allow only the exact to the right or exact to the left movement.  
>> Advanced and experienced scribes and readers prefer spellings with  
>> a minimum of �strokes� and �circles� as long as the idea can  
>> be described in a way that the �informed reader� understands  
>> what is to be performed.
>>
>>>>
>> So no extra regulations needed � smile �
>>
>>>>
>> Stefan ;-)
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>> Von: sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu [mailto:sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu 
>> ] Im Auftrag von KJ
>> Gesendet: Freitag, 28. November 2008 05:27
>> An: SignWriting List
>> Betreff: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side
>>
>>>>
>> I feel the same way, Stefan - I always write single stemmed arrows  
>> for side-to-side movement.� But it is interesting what Andre had  
>> to say... I didn't think about connecting the single-stemmed arrows  
>> with floor plane handshapes and double-stemmed arrows with wall  
>> plane handshapes.� It makes sense to me, though!� And if the  
>> kids feel it is easier to read when the arrow stems match the  
>> handshape plane, then maybe we should think about adopting that as  
>> a convention...
>>
>>>>
>> KJ
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: Stefan W�hrmann
>>
>> To: 'SignWriting List'
>>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 10:42 AM
>>
>> Subject: AW: [sw-l] Movement to the side
>>
>>>>
>> Hi Andr�,
>>
>>>>
>> I agree with Adams comment � it doesn�t matter. � smile �  
>> From my point of view � I prefer single stemmed arrows if the  
>> movement is directly to the left or right side. But this attitude  
>> developed over time � I guess it is a matter of clear  
>> structure .. .
>>
>>>>
>> Sometimes I hesitate if I should vote for top � down or  
>> frontview� if a� handorientation allows� both options ... and  
>> in the past we discussed this point that almost always both hands  
>> in a sign should be written � (if possible) from the same point of  
>> view ( both hands top down, or both hands front view) But even here  
>> I decide to violate this �principle� if anything seems to  
>> prevent the reader to understand intuitively and alost without any  
>> hesitation.
>>
>>>>
>> So � my opinion � left and right movement � (if they are meant  
>> to be straight to the left and straight to the right) ��c a  
>> n�� be written with both arrows ( double        stemmed and  
>> sinle stemmed) but in these cases I always vote for the single  
>> stemmed arrows.
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>> Stefan ;-)
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>> Von: sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu [mailto:sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu 
>> ] Im Auftrag von Gagnon et Thibeault
>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. November 2008 18:04
>> An: SignWriting List
>> Betreff: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side
>>
>>>>
>> Hi Adam and everyone,
>>
>>>>
>> ��� Yes, (A) and (B) are correct or the same.� But Deaf  
>> students'thinking is different from your thinking.� For example,  
>> Deaf students develop a phonological analysis for different SW  
>> symbols (hand on the floor or wall plane and single-stemmed arrow  
>> (floor plane) and double-stemmed arrow (wall plane)).� Deaf  
>> students found that they are more comfortable to read (B)  
>> than�(A)�because of the same wall planes.� It is very  
>> important for me to understand how to acquire and learn a  
>> phonological analysis for Deaf kids, not Deaf adults.� For  
>> example, a Deaf kid who is 7 years old is able to read (B)�more  
>> easy�than (A) according to Deaf teacher.
>>
>>>>
>> ��� I don't doubt that older kids are able to read either (A)  
>> and (B) than younger kids.
>>
>>>>
>> ��� Regards,
>>
>>>>
>> ��� Andr�
>>
>>>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: Adam Frost
>>
>> To: SignWriting List
>>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 11:03 AM
>>
>> Subject: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side
>>
>>>>
>> The difference between using the single stem arrow and double stem  
>> for side movements is just writers preference. Either is still  
>> correct. So (A) and (B) are the same. (C) and (D) have the hands on  
>> the floor plane which is different from (A) and (B). I am not  
>> surprise that the deaf students are talking about floor and wall  
>> planes. ;-)
>>
>>>>
>> Adam
>>
>> On Nov 27, 2008, at 7:15 AM, "Gagnon et Thibeault"  
>> <atg at videotron.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Val, Adam, Stefan and everyone,
>>>
>>>>>>
>>> ��� It is interesting that Deaf students talked about a front  
>>> view and a top view.
>>>
>>>>>>
>>> ��� See my attached diagram.� This is my writing (A)  
>>> (DEFENDRE (French) = INTERDICT (English).� Deaf students are  
>>> confused to read it because they stopped reading and figured out  
>>> it.� Several Deaf students explained that the two hands are  
>>> parallel with the front wall (front view), and the movement to the  
>>> side with the single-stemmed arrows is viewed from the floor (top  
>>> view).�� They suggested that the two hands are parallel with  
>>> the front wall (front view), and the movement to the side with the  
>>> double-stemmed arrows is viewed from the�front wall�(front  
>>> view) (See the attached diagram (B) because Deaf students read it  
>>> easily (the same front view).� They told Deaf teacher if they  
>>> use�the two hands which are parallel with the floor, they use the  
>>> movement to the side with the single-stemmed arrows whhich is  
>>> viewed from the floor (top view) (See the attached diagram (C).�  
>>> They don't want to use (D) since they aren't conformtable to read  
>>> it.
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> ��� I can't believe that Deaf students understand a concept  
>>> of the front view and the top view.
>>>
>>>>>>
>>> ��� I adopt Deaf students'proposal.
>>>
>>>>>>
>>> ��� Regards,
>>>
>>>>>>
>>> ��� Andr�
>>>
>>>>>>
>>> <SW DEFENDRE.doc>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________
>>>
>>> SW-L SignWriting List
>>>
>>> Post Message
>>> SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
>>>
>>> List Archives and Help
>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/
>>>
>>> Change Email Settings
>>> http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________
>>
>> SW-L SignWriting List
>>
>> Post Message
>> SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
>>
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>>
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>>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________
>>
>> SW-L SignWriting List
>>
>> Post Message
>> SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
>>
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>>
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>>
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>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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>> 11/27/2008 7:53 PM
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>>
>> Ich verwende die kostenlose Version von SPAMfighter, die bisher
>> 433 Spammails entfernt und mir so eine Menge Zeit gespart hat.
>> Rund 5,6 Millionen Leute nutzen SPAMfighter schon
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________
>>
>> SW-L SignWriting List
>>
>> Post Message
>> SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
>>
>> List Archives and Help
>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/
>>
>> Change Email Settings
>> http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l
>
>
>
> I think the graphic below is really usefull to help understand,....
> and then anyone feel free to chose the arrow he prefers for lateral
> movements
> have a nice week-end everyone
> Anny
>> Le 28 nov. 08 à 12:14, Stefan Wöhrmann a écrit :
>
> > Hi KJ and list,
> >
> > well from my point of view there is no need for any change in this
> > matter. – smile –
> >
> > And Andrè, well during my workshops I often understand that the
> > beginners support themselves with some guidelines that help them to
> > learn with less insecurity. That is fine – so no problem if they
> > prefer double stemmed arrows – >From the teachers point of view I
> > would not insist too much on this but just accept their writing
> > ( if they really would write themselves that would be a tremendous
> > achievement)  At the same time I would follow the principles we
> > know from other fields of instructions – just do not repeat what
> > you yourself would judge to be wrong – but instead offer your
> > “other” solution. That is the same principle as hearing babys
> > learn to talk and deaf babys learn to sign. Why not accept special
> > favorite options to beginners ... smile ... no problem with that.
> >
> > Within this context – well I have my doubts – perhaps this habit
> > to vote for double stemmed arrows is connected to the teaching
> > method. Often SW-instruction courses start with hands parallel to
> > the wall – so all these movements up and down and circular and
> > diagonal ... are associated with double stemmed movement arrows.
> >
> >
> >
> > It is always a critical point if you have to explain the writing of
> > a flat hand pointing directly to the right or left – now the
> > participants understand that it is up to you to see this  hand from
> > top down or from frontview  and this will lead to the association
> > that if you vote for frontview you are better of with the double
> > stemmed arrow whereas the single stemmed arrows would allow only
> > the exact to the right or exact to the left movement. Advanced and
> > experienced scribes and readers prefer spellings with a minimum of
> > “strokes” and “circles” as long as the idea can be described
> > in a way that the “informed reader” understands what is to be
> > performed.
> >
> >
> >
> > So no extra regulations needed – smile –
> >
> >
> >
> > Stefan ;-)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Von: sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu [mailto:sw-l-
> > bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu] Im Auftrag von KJ
> > Gesendet: Freitag, 28. November 2008 05:27
> > An: SignWriting List
> > Betreff: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side
> >
> >
> >
> > I feel the same way, Stefan - I always write single stemmed arrows
> > for side-to-side movement.  But it is interesting what Andre had to
> > say... I didn't think about connecting the single-stemmed arrows
> > with floor plane handshapes and double-stemmed arrows with wall
> > plane handshapes.  It makes sense to me, though!  And if the kids
> > feel it is easier to read when the arrow stems match the handshape
> > plane, then maybe we should think about adopting that as a
> > convention...
> >
> >
> >
> > KJ
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: Stefan Wöhrmann
> >
> > To: 'SignWriting List'
> >
> > Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 10:42 AM
> >
> > Subject: AW: [sw-l] Movement to the side
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Andrè,
> >
> >
> >
> > I agree with Adams comment – it doesn’t matter. – smile –
> > From my point of view – I prefer single stemmed arrows if the
> > movement is directly to the left or right side. But this attitude
> > developed over time – I guess it is a matter of clear  
> structure .. .
> >
> >
> >
> > Sometimes I hesitate if I should vote for top – down or frontview
> > if a  handorientation allows  both options ... and in the past we
> > discussed this point that almost always both hands in a sign should
> > be written – (if possible) from the same point of view ( both
> > hands top down, or both hands front view) But even here I decide to
> > violate this “principle” if anything seems to prevent the reader
> > to understand intuitively and alost without any hesitation.
> >
> >
> >
> > So – my opinion – left and right movement – (if they are meant
> > to be straight to the left and straight to the right)   c a n   be
> > written with both arrows ( double stemmed and sinle stemmed) but in
> > these cases I always vote for the single stemmed arrows.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Stefan ;-)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Von: sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu [mailto:sw-l-
> > bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu] Im Auftrag von Gagnon et Thibeault
> > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. November 2008 18:04
> > An: SignWriting List
> > Betreff: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Adam and everyone,
> >
> >
> >
> >     Yes, (A) and (B) are correct or the same.  But Deaf
> > students'thinking is different from your thinking.  For example,
> > Deaf students develop a phonological analysis for different SW
> > symbols (hand on the floor or wall plane and single-stemmed arrow
> > (floor plane) and double-stemmed arrow (wall plane)).  Deaf
> > students found that they are more comfortable to read (B) than (A)
> > because of the same wall planes.  It is very important for me to
> > understand how to acquire and learn a phonological analysis for
> > Deaf kids, not Deaf adults.  For example, a Deaf kid who is 7 years
> > old is able to read (B) more easy than (A) according to Deaf  
> teacher.
> >
> >
> >
> >     I don't doubt that older kids are able to read either (A) and
> > (B) than younger kids.
> >
> >
> >
> >     Regards,
> >
> >
> >
> >     André
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: Adam Frost
> >
> > To: SignWriting List
> >
> > Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 11:03 AM
> >
> > Subject: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side
> >
> >
> >
> > The difference between using the single stem arrow and double stem
> > for side movements is just writers preference. Either is still
> > correct. So (A) and (B) are the same. (C) and (D) have the hands on
> > the floor plane which is different from (A) and (B). I am not
> > surprise that the deaf students are talking about floor and wall
> > planes. ;-)
> >
> >
> >
> > Adam
> >
> > On Nov 27, 2008, at 7:15 AM, "Gagnon et Thibeault"
> > <atg at videotron.ca> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Val, Adam, Stefan and everyone,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     It is interesting that Deaf students talked about a front view
> >> and a top view.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     See my attached diagram.  This is my writing (A) (DEFENDRE
> >> (French) = INTERDICT (English).  Deaf students are confused to
> >> read it because they stopped reading and figured out it.  Several
> >> Deaf students explained that the two hands are parallel with the
> >> front wall (front view), and the movement to the side with the
> >> single-stemmed arrows is viewed from the floor (top view).   They
> >> suggested that the two hands are parallel with the front wall
> >> (front view), and the movement to the side with the double-stemmed
> >> arrows is viewed from the front wall (front view) (See the
> >> attached diagram (B) because Deaf students read it easily (the
> >> same front view).  They told Deaf teacher if they use the two
> >> hands which are parallel with the floor, they use the movement to
> >> the side with the single-stemmed arrows whhich is viewed from the
> >> floor (top view) (See the attached diagram (C).  They don't want
> >> to use (D) since they aren't conformtable to read it.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     I can't believe that Deaf students understand a concept of the
> >> front view and the top view.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     I adopt Deaf students'proposal.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     Regards,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     André
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> <SW DEFENDRE.doc>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ____________________________________________
> >>
> >> SW-L SignWriting List
> >>
> >> Post Message
> >> SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> >>
> >> List Archives and Help
> >> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/
> >>
> >> Change Email Settings
> >> http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________
> >
> > SW-L SignWriting List
> >
> > Post Message
> > SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> >
> > List Archives and Help
> > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/
> >
> > Change Email Settings
> > http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l
> >
> >
> >
> > Ich verwende die kostenlose Version von SPAMfighter, die bisher
> > 430 Spammails entfernt und mir so eine Menge Zeit gespart hat.
> > Rund 5,6 Millionen Leute nutzen SPAMfighter schon
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________
> >
> > SW-L SignWriting List
> >
> > Post Message
> > SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> >
> > List Archives and Help
> > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/
> >
> > Change Email Settings
> > http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.11/1816 - Release Date:
> > 11/27/2008 7:53 PM
> >
> >
> > Ich verwende die kostenlose Version von SPAMfighter, die bisher
> > 433 Spammails entfernt und mir so eine Menge Zeit gespart hat.
> > Rund 5,6 Millionen Leute nutzen SPAMfighter schon
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________
> >
> > SW-L SignWriting List
> >
> > Post Message
> > SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> >
> > List Archives and Help
> > http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/
> >
> > Change Email Settings
> > http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________
>
> SW-L SignWriting List
>
> Post Message
> SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
>
> List Archives and Help
> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/
>
> Change Email Settings
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>
>
>
> ____________________________________________
>
> SW-L SignWriting List
>
> Post Message
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>
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>
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