AW: [sw-l] Movement to the side
Gagnon et Thibeault
atg at VIDEOTRON.CA
Fri Nov 28 16:29:36 UTC 2008
Hi Val and everyone,
I will ask a Deaf teacher if she has a photo. The school is in Ottawa, not in Quebec. But, Deaf students use a French language and a LSQ.
Hand waving
André
----- Original Message -----
From: Valerie Sutton
To: SignWriting List
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: AW: [sw-l] Movement to the side
SignWriting List
November 28, 2008
Just a side note...
There is an old photo gallery of some of Stefan's Deaf students writing SignWriting, which I posted years ago on the web...the first Deaf child is named Irina, and she too is a native signer (is that correct, Stefan?...I hope I remember correctly about that)...of course all these children are now close to being grown-up...but they certainly can use SignWriting! Great photos, Stefan...thanks for sharing these with us long ago...
Deaf children in Germany using SignWriting
http://www.signwriting.org/germany/germany01.html
http://www.signwriting.org/germany/germany02.html
http://www.signwriting.org/germany/germany03.html
So Andre, if you have photos that you have permission to share with us, of your Deaf students and teachers using SignWriting in your research project in Quebec, I will be very happy to post them...they will be valuable for future research, just as Stefan's photos are...
Val ;-)
-----------
On Nov 28, 2008, at 7:03 AM, Gagnon et Thibeault wrote:
Hi Anne-Claude, Stefan, Kelly Jo and everyone,
Anny, Stefan and Kelly Jo, thanks for your comments.
Stefan, you wrote : That is the same principle as hearing babys learn to talk and deaf
babys learn to sign. I have to say : No. Don't forget that if a deaf infant is born to hearing parents (95%), he or she receives no language input (sign language and spoken language), delayed langauge input, or inconsistant language input. He or she has the limits on the language learning imposed by the cognitve and neural maturation during development. For example, in general, "some" Deaf kids who are 7 to 9 years old have been learning his/her sign language at the first time since 3 or 4 year. They have still been a poor sign language. However, a SW helps them develop their skilled sign language. They are able to read it slowly because of the delayed cogntion and delayed language. They can understand a sign for DEFENDRE (B), not (A). It is not always a word "beginner" or "beginning readers and writers". If a Deaf infant is born to Deaf parents (5%), you are right. I answer: Yes. One Deaf kid who is 4 years old has been learning his sign language since birth. He learned fast a SW last year. But, his Deaf family moved to another city.
Hand waving
André
----- Original Message -----
From: Anne-Claude Prélaz Girod
To: SignWriting List
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 6:20 AM
Subject: Re: AW: [sw-l] Movement to the side
I think the graphic below is really usefull to help understand,....
and then anyone feel free to chose the arrow he prefers for lateral movements
have a nice week-end everyone
Anny
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Le 28 nov. 08 � 12:14, Stefan W�hrmann a �crit :
Hi KJ and list,
well from my point of view there is no need for any change in this matter. � smile �
And Andr�, well during my workshops I often understand that the beginners support themselves with some guidelines that help them to learn with less insecurity. That is fine � so no problem if they prefer double stemmed arrows � From the teachers point of view I would not insist too much on this but just accept their writing ( if they really would write themselves that would be a tremendous achievement) �At the same time I would follow the principles we know from other fields of instructions � just do not repeat what you yourself would judge to be wrong � but instead offer your �other� solution. That is the same principle as hearing babys learn to talk and deaf babys learn to sign. Why not accept special favorite options to beginners ... smile ... no problem with that.
Within this context � well I have my doubts � perhaps this habit to vote for double stemmed arrows is connected to the teaching method. Often SW-instruction courses start with hands parallel to the wall � so all these movements up and down and circular and diagonal ... are associated with double stemmed movement arrows.
�
It is always a critical point if you have to explain the writing of a flat hand pointing directly to the right or left � now the participants understand that it is up to you to see this� hand from top down or from frontview �and this will lead to the association that if you vote for frontview you are better of with the double stemmed arrow whereas the single stemmed arrows would allow only the exact to the right or exact to the left movement. Advanced and experienced scribes and readers prefer spellings with a minimum of �strokes� and �circles� as long as the idea can be described in a way that the �informed reader� understands what is to be performed.
�
So no extra regulations needed � smile �
�
Stefan ;-)
�
�
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Von: sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu [mailto:sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu] Im Auftrag von KJ
Gesendet: Freitag, 28. November 2008 05:27
An: SignWriting List
Betreff: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side
�
I feel the same way, Stefan - I always write single stemmed arrows for side-to-side movement.� But it is interesting what Andre had to say... I didn't think about connecting the single-stemmed arrows with floor plane handshapes and double-stemmed arrows with wall plane handshapes.� It makes sense to me, though!� And if the kids feel it is easier to read when the arrow stems match the handshape plane, then maybe we should think about adopting that as a convention...
�
KJ
----- Original Message -----
From: Stefan W�hrmann
To: 'SignWriting List'
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 10:42 AM
Subject: AW: [sw-l] Movement to the side
�
Hi Andr�,
�
I agree with Adams comment � it doesn�t matter. � smile � From my point of view � I prefer single stemmed arrows if the movement is directly to the left or right side. But this attitude developed over time � I guess it is a matter of clear structure .. .
�
Sometimes I hesitate if I should vote for top � down or frontview� if a� handorientation allows� both options ... and in the past we discussed this point that almost always both hands in a sign should be written � (if possible) from the same point of view ( both hands top down, or both hands front view) But even here I decide to violate this �principle� if anything seems to prevent the reader to understand intuitively and alost without any hesitation.
�
So � my opinion � left and right movement � (if they are meant to be straight to the left and straight to the right) ��c a n�� be written with both arrows ( double stemmed and sinle stemmed) but in these cases I always vote for the single stemmed arrows.
�
�
Stefan ;-)
�
�
�
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Von: sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu [mailto:sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu] Im Auftrag von Gagnon et Thibeault
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. November 2008 18:04
An: SignWriting List
Betreff: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side
�
Hi Adam and everyone,
�
��� Yes, (A) and (B) are correct or the same.� But Deaf students'thinking is different from your thinking.� For example, Deaf students develop a phonological analysis for different SW symbols (hand on the floor or wall plane and single-stemmed arrow (floor plane) and double-stemmed arrow (wall plane)).� Deaf students found that they are more comfortable to read (B) than�(A)�because of the same wall planes.� It is very important for me to understand how to acquire and learn a phonological analysis for Deaf kids, not Deaf adults.� For example, a Deaf kid who is 7 years old is able to read (B)�more easy�than (A) according to Deaf teacher.
�
��� I don't doubt that older kids are able to read either (A) and (B) than younger kids.
�
��� Regards,
�
��� Andr�
�
----- Original Message -----
From: Adam Frost
To: SignWriting List
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side
�
The difference between using the single stem arrow and double stem for side movements is just writers preference. Either is still correct. So (A) and (B) are the same. (C) and (D) have the hands on the floor plane which is different from (A) and (B). I am not surprise that the deaf students are talking about floor and wall planes. ;-)
�
Adam
On Nov 27, 2008, at 7:15 AM, "Gagnon et Thibeault" <atg at videotron.ca> wrote:
Hi Val, Adam, Stefan and everyone,
�
��� It is interesting that Deaf students talked about a front view and a top view.
�
��� See my attached diagram.� This is my writing (A) (DEFENDRE (French) = INTERDICT (English).� Deaf students are confused to read it because they stopped reading and figured out it.� Several Deaf students explained that the two hands are parallel with the front wall (front view), and the movement to the side with the single-stemmed arrows is viewed from the floor (top view).�� They suggested that the two hands are parallel with the front wall (front view), and the movement to the side with the double-stemmed arrows is viewed from the�front wall�(front view) (See the attached diagram (B) because Deaf students read it easily (the same front view).� They told Deaf teacher if they use�the two hands which are parallel with the floor, they use the movement to the side with the single-stemmed arrows whhich is viewed from the floor (top view) (See the attached diagram (C).� They don't want to use (D) since they aren't conformtable to read it.
�
�
��� I can't believe that Deaf students understand a concept of the front view and the top view.
�
��� I adopt Deaf students'proposal.
�
��� Regards,
�
��� Andr�
�
<SW DEFENDRE.doc>
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I think the graphic below is really usefull to help understand,....
and then anyone feel free to chose the arrow he prefers for lateral
movements
have a nice week-end everyone
Anny

Le 28 nov. 08 à 12:14, Stefan Wöhrmann a écrit :
> Hi KJ and list,
>
> well from my point of view there is no need for any change in this
> matter. – smile –
>
> And Andrè, well during my workshops I often understand that the
> beginners support themselves with some guidelines that help them to
> learn with less insecurity. That is fine – so no problem if they
> prefer double stemmed arrows – >From the teachers point of view I
> would not insist too much on this but just accept their writing
> ( if they really would write themselves that would be a tremendous
> achievement) At the same time I would follow the principles we
> know from other fields of instructions – just do not repeat what
> you yourself would judge to be wrong – but instead offer your
> “other” solution. That is the same principle as hearing babys
> learn to talk and deaf babys learn to sign. Why not accept special
> favorite options to beginners ... smile ... no problem with that.
>
> Within this context – well I have my doubts – perhaps this habit
> to vote for double stemmed arrows is connected to the teaching
> method. Often SW-instruction courses start with hands parallel to
> the wall – so all these movements up and down and circular and
> diagonal ... are associated with double stemmed movement arrows.
>
>
>
> It is always a critical point if you have to explain the writing of
> a flat hand pointing directly to the right or left – now the
> participants understand that it is up to you to see this hand from
> top down or from frontview and this will lead to the association
> that if you vote for frontview you are better of with the double
> stemmed arrow whereas the single stemmed arrows would allow only
> the exact to the right or exact to the left movement. Advanced and
> experienced scribes and readers prefer spellings with a minimum of
> “strokes” and “circles” as long as the idea can be described
> in a way that the “informed reader” understands what is to be
> performed.
>
>
>
> So no extra regulations needed – smile –
>
>
>
> Stefan ;-)
>
>
>
>
>
> Von: sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu [mailto:sw-l-
> bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu] Im Auftrag von KJ
> Gesendet: Freitag, 28. November 2008 05:27
> An: SignWriting List
> Betreff: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side
>
>
>
> I feel the same way, Stefan - I always write single stemmed arrows
> for side-to-side movement. But it is interesting what Andre had to
> say... I didn't think about connecting the single-stemmed arrows
> with floor plane handshapes and double-stemmed arrows with wall
> plane handshapes. It makes sense to me, though! And if the kids
> feel it is easier to read when the arrow stems match the handshape
> plane, then maybe we should think about adopting that as a
> convention...
>
>
>
> KJ
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Stefan Wöhrmann
>
> To: 'SignWriting List'
>
> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 10:42 AM
>
> Subject: AW: [sw-l] Movement to the side
>
>
>
> Hi Andrè,
>
>
>
> I agree with Adams comment – it doesn’t matter. – smile –
> From my point of view – I prefer single stemmed arrows if the
> movement is directly to the left or right side. But this attitude
> developed over time – I guess it is a matter of clear structure .. .
>
>
>
> Sometimes I hesitate if I should vote for top – down or frontview
> if a handorientation allows both options ... and in the past we
> discussed this point that almost always both hands in a sign should
> be written – (if possible) from the same point of view ( both
> hands top down, or both hands front view) But even here I decide to
> violate this “principle” if anything seems to prevent the reader
> to understand intuitively and alost without any hesitation.
>
>
>
> So – my opinion – left and right movement – (if they are meant
> to be straight to the left and straight to the right) c a n be
> written with both arrows ( double stemmed and sinle stemmed) but in
> these cases I always vote for the single stemmed arrows.
>
>
>
>
>
> Stefan ;-)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Von: sw-l-bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu [mailto:sw-l-
> bounces at majordomo.valenciacc.edu] Im Auftrag von Gagnon et Thibeault
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. November 2008 18:04
> An: SignWriting List
> Betreff: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side
>
>
>
> Hi Adam and everyone,
>
>
>
> Yes, (A) and (B) are correct or the same. But Deaf
> students'thinking is different from your thinking. For example,
> Deaf students develop a phonological analysis for different SW
> symbols (hand on the floor or wall plane and single-stemmed arrow
> (floor plane) and double-stemmed arrow (wall plane)). Deaf
> students found that they are more comfortable to read (B) than (A)
> because of the same wall planes. It is very important for me to
> understand how to acquire and learn a phonological analysis for
> Deaf kids, not Deaf adults. For example, a Deaf kid who is 7 years
> old is able to read (B) more easy than (A) according to Deaf teacher.
>
>
>
> I don't doubt that older kids are able to read either (A) and
> (B) than younger kids.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> André
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Adam Frost
>
> To: SignWriting List
>
> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 11:03 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [sw-l] Movement to the side
>
>
>
> The difference between using the single stem arrow and double stem
> for side movements is just writers preference. Either is still
> correct. So (A) and (B) are the same. (C) and (D) have the hands on
> the floor plane which is different from (A) and (B). I am not
> surprise that the deaf students are talking about floor and wall
> planes. ;-)
>
>
>
> Adam
>
> On Nov 27, 2008, at 7:15 AM, "Gagnon et Thibeault"
> <atg at videotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> Hi Val, Adam, Stefan and everyone,
>>
>>
>>
>> It is interesting that Deaf students talked about a front view
>> and a top view.
>>
>>
>>
>> See my attached diagram. This is my writing (A) (DEFENDRE
>> (French) = INTERDICT (English). Deaf students are confused to
>> read it because they stopped reading and figured out it. Several
>> Deaf students explained that the two hands are parallel with the
>> front wall (front view), and the movement to the side with the
>> single-stemmed arrows is viewed from the floor (top view). They
>> suggested that the two hands are parallel with the front wall
>> (front view), and the movement to the side with the double-stemmed
>> arrows is viewed from the front wall (front view) (See the
>> attached diagram (B) because Deaf students read it easily (the
>> same front view). They told Deaf teacher if they use the two
>> hands which are parallel with the floor, they use the movement to
>> the side with the single-stemmed arrows whhich is viewed from the
>> floor (top view) (See the attached diagram (C). They don't want
>> to use (D) since they aren't conformtable to read it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I can't believe that Deaf students understand a concept of the
>> front view and the top view.
>>
>>
>>
>> I adopt Deaf students'proposal.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> André
>>
>>
>>
>> <SW DEFENDRE.doc>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________
>>
>> SW-L SignWriting List
>>
>> Post Message
>> SW-L at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
>>
>> List Archives and Help
>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/
>>
>> Change Email Settings
>> http://majordomo.valenciacc.edu/mailman/listinfo/sw-l
>>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________
>
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> Rund 5,6 Millionen Leute nutzen SPAMfighter schon
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>
>
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>
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> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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> 11/27/2008 7:53 PM
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> Ich verwende die kostenlose Version von SPAMfighter, die bisher
> 433 Spammails entfernt und mir so eine Menge Zeit gespart hat.
> Rund 5,6 Millionen Leute nutzen SPAMfighter schon
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