embedding ASL in pdf/html

Alan Post alanpost at SUNFLOWERRIVER.ORG
Wed Mar 24 03:37:26 UTC 2010 

I am familiar, in passing, with Esperanto, and can include at least
one fluent Esperanto speaker amongst my acquaintances.  I did not
know about SignUno until now, thank you!

I note that there isn't an English wikipedia page on the topic.
This is only the second time post wikipedia's foom that I have
been introduced to something for which this is true.

-Alan

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 08:00:38PM -0700, SignWriting wrote:
> SignWriting List
> March 23, 2010 
> 
> Alan -
> I have been thinking about this and I realize that you are talking about Lojban as a "designed" language...but as you know, neither English nor ASL are "designed languages" but are naturally evolved languages, which actually follow logic, but not a "designed" logic by committee...naturally evolved languages may seem inconsistent at times, but they evolve the way they do because of the way the brain works naturally when using languages...
> 
> Meanwhile, I am writing this message because I wonder if you ever looked into Esperanto and SignUno? Esperanto is, as you know, a "somewhat designed" spoken language - they blend the common languages of the west, together, to create a language that they hoped would be an international way of communicating among westerners, but that never happened...everyone kept using their naturally evolved languages...although there is still a true following of Esperanto...
> 
> Nevertheless, SignUno is the sign language equivalent for Esperanto, and years ago an expert in SignUno wrote a complete SignPuddle dictionary for SignUno in SignPuddle Online:
> 
> SignUno Dictionary in SignPuddle
> http://www.signbank.org/SignPuddle1.5/index.php?ui=11&sgn=54
> 
> and the spoken language you see here is Esperanto i believe...thought you might be interested!
> 
> Val ;-)
> 
> 


> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 23, 2010, at 6:56 PM, Alan Post wrote:
> 
> > I'm certainly not offended, thank you for sharing this with me.  I'm
> > not sure I can fully respond, as there is a part of me that is not
> > willing to stop working on my project, and there is only so much
> > debate one can engage in if you're not willing to change your mind
> > as a result of the debate.
> > 
> > I feel deeply attracted to my project, such that not continuing to
> > work on it would be traumatizing to me.  Thinking about the
> > possibility certainly is.
> > 
> > I would hope (perhaps it would be better say I would wishfully
> > think) that there is some way in which I can honor the point of view
> > you express here--both within myself and within "lo do ckiku ma
> > zvati."  That there would be some change I could make--something I
> > could do--so that this game would not make you feel this way.
> > 
> > This is wishful thinking because it is a thought process that comes
> > from my own unwillingness to abandon my project.  So I present it as
> > a rationalization to continue doing the only thing I feel that I can
> > do: play "lo do ckiku ma zvati."
> > 
> > If you permitted me a moment to dream of ways you and I could both
> > be happy, it would be this: I'm using ASL because it is available to
> > me.  There are many grammatical elements in Lojban that have no
> > parallel in English or ASL.  These three languages are expressive in
> > their own ways, each has a vastly different grammar.  Lojban would be
> > better served by having a sign language designed with the same
> > principles used to create Lojban:
> > 
> >  * Lojban is designed to be culturally neutral.
> >  * Lojban has an unambiguous grammar, which is based on the
> >    principles of logic.
> >  * Lojban has phonetic spelling, and unambiguous resolution of
> >    sounds into words.  (In the case of a sign language, an
> >    unambiguous resolution of gestures into words, and the
> >    technology already exists for the equivalent of "phonetic"
> >    spelling.) 
> >  * Lojban is regular; the rules of the language are without
> >    exception.
> > 
> > No such sign language yet exists.  I'm not qualified, alone, to do
> > this work: it is an extremely high standard.  It would speak very
> > well of one's ability to live according to one's ideals to see a
> > project like this to completion for the purposes of resolving this
> > issue.
> > 
> > Given that I see the decision tree as either A) I destroy "lo do
> > ckiku ma zvati," B) you stop feeling like "lo do ckiku ma zvati"
> > is appropriating ASL or C) We come to a mutual understanding, a
> > workable compromise, or in the best of all possible worlds a shared
> > vision, I have a tremendous preference for option C.
> > 
> > I don't know whether you and I can both get what we want in option
> > C.  What do you think?
> > 
> > -Alan
> > 
> > On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 05:51:20PM -0700, Cherie Wren wrote:
> >>   What hearing people have done, more than just a few times, is take the
> >>   LANGUAGE of Deaf people, ASL, and minimize it into a code for English (or
> >>   whatever).  Using the signs to' stand for' words in another language
> >>   without understanding the grammar and structure that make ASL a language
> >>   is reducing one of the most beautiful languages into nothing more than
> >>   morse code on the hands.  Its like taking a beautiful piece of art and
> >>   cutting it into pieces to use for note paper.   While using it to play
> >>   your game to teach yet another language is, I am sure, useful to you, it
> >>   contributes to the all too common misunderstanding that ASL is not a
> >>   proper language, it is just 'hand talk code' and can be thrown about willy
> >>   nilly in any fashion we want.  It denigrates ASL into a SUB-sub-language
> >>   status.  (it has long been considered "less than" spoken language, now its
> >>   being pushed even lower.)
> >> 
> >>   Wow.  Sorry.  I didn't realize I felt that strongly about it until I
> >>   started writing.  I sat and seriously debated whether I wanted to send
> >>   this or delete it, but you asked...  I have nothing against you or your
> >>   project, and I hope this doesn't come across as too offensive.  But I have
> >>   been fighting with hearing people who treat ASL as a way to manually
> >>   represent English for FAAAARRR too long.  I apologize if I have ruffled
> >>   any feathers...
> >> 
> >>   cherie
> >> 
> >>   --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> 
> >>   From: Adam Frost <icemandeaf at gmail.com>
> >>   To: SignWriting List <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
> >>   Sent: Tue, March 23, 2010 2:32:19 PM
> >>   Subject: Re: [sw-l] embedding ASL in pdf/html
> >>   That's exactly what he meant. It is something that has to be treaded
> >>   carefully because it has happened too many times where that exact fear has
> >>   happened. That is why so many Deaf people are so protective.
> >> 
> >>   Adam
> >> 
> >>   On Mar 23, 2010, at 11:15 AM, Valerie Sutton wrote:
> >> 
> >>> So I am trying to imagine what the Deaf person meant by saying that to
> >>   you...I would assume there is a possible fear, that hearing people will
> >>   use Deaf people's native language, ASL, which is a true language, just for
> >>   games, and not understand its importance in society .... do you think that
> >>   was what he meant?
> >>> 
> >>> Adam?
> >> 
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> > -- 
> > te djuno lo do sevzi
> > 
> > 
> > 
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-- 
te djuno lo do sevzi



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