AW: AW: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift
Ingvild Roald
iroald at HOTMAIL.COM
Mon Oct 17 18:30:09 UTC 2011
Thnk you Stefan,
yes, mouthing is part of many signed languages in Europe. So many signs are not complete without the appropriate mouth. SOme of these mouth-forms/shapes are not borrowed from Norwegian spoken language, but are special to the Norwegian SL. But many, if not most, signs (especially nouns) have mouthing of the visible part of a Norwegian word as essential parts.
Norwegian SL is not like ASL, there is not a lot of fingerspelling. Borrowing from Norwegian spoken lanugage is mostly done by mouthing.
I prefer to write the mouthing by using symbols from SignWriting to the old solution of writing roman letters close to the mouth. That solution was because we had nothing else - it was fast and easy, but could confuse readers as to what is NSL and what is spoken Norwegian.
I am sure that the case for Germany is about the same as for Norwegian.
I would love for the Norwegian deaf kids to learn how to use Mundbildschrift to help them read lips and speak better - that is a good thing in a hearing society.
I do love that they can write their own language and compare that to the majority language by using SIgnWriting. The goal for deaf education in Norway is not to make the deaf kids speak and read Norwegain, it is to make them educated people who can be as competent as possible in as many aeras as possible. That is why they are learning Notwegian, Norwegian Sign language, English, British Sign language, and all other subjects that any Norwegain kid is to learn.
Ingvild
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 20:07:06 +0200
From: stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM
Subject: AW: AW: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Hi Charles, Ingvild, Valerie, Bill ...
first of all - what an interesting discussion. Thanks
for that!
I learn from your comments that it is difficult to
explain. I tried my best but perhaps my English is not good enough. Erika
Hoffmann should be able to explain it better than I can. She spent some time in
my classes. We had been so tremdously successful to investigate about
Mundbilder. Erika was present when I asked my students to write by hand at the
blackboard ...
The two systems look very similar but should not get
mixed. Perhaps this may cause confusion.
What do you want me to do? You think it is difficult to
write English words "red" and
"green" in Mundbildschrift in order to practice articulation? No - it is easy
and in fact for this case I had to invent a special symbol to indicate this
special "r" which is not to be found in German Spoken language.
You think it is difficult to write Mundbilder for the
signs "red" and "green" ? Well perhaps this is not neccessary if there are no
other signs that can be misunderstood as "red" and "green"
You are right - my invention "Mundbildschrift" is meant
to support deaf students to improve articulation and to expand their vocabulary
in spoken language. So this has almost nothing to do with Sign Language and
SignWriting.
Apart from that I defined "Mundbilder in der
GebaerdenSchrift" which cover that part of information a deaf signer would
perform while comunicating in Sign Language.
Perhaps it is hard to believe for an ASL - signer but
the way Ingvild explained it is absolut correct. German Sign Language
(DGS) includes quite a bit of this kind of information coming from your lips
and and tongue as if pronouncing at least a part of a German word.
These informations are crucial in order to read
SW-documents for DGS fluently and to understand the idea behind it. So this is
not a cued speech or what ever hearing oriented system. This is important to
understand.
All the best
Stefan ;-)
Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign
Languages [mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von
Charles Butler
Gesendet: Montag, 17. Oktober 2011
15:41
An: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Betreff: Re: AW:
Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift
Here is a challenge for you,
When I think of the shape of the mouth for the English words "red"
and "green" I would be at a loss to show how that could be articulated
with anything other than cued speech. The articulations on the face are
precisely the same.
Their ASL signs are completely different, but a face model would not
help unless it is a different kind of signal than a face.
That is the linguistic model of the two words. The G cannot be seen
on the face, as a velar consonant it is simply not seen, and the D and the
N are articulated in the same place on the visible tongue.
Cued speech, which indicates velar positions as well as lips and
tongue, divides those out, and it has been used with spectacular success
in English-language based classes in the U.S. to show writing English
based on the spoken word.
I am not an expert in cued speech, I write ASL in SW with what
knowledge I have, which is not highly detailed in terms of anything other
than the P, F, and M articulations which appear in ASL not as indicators
of English words but as articulators within ASL itself, not based on
English, such as the PAH of success (with a P articulator and a breath),
and the MMM of agreement.
What your system is used for is "visible German" which is a good
thing of itself, but I have seen SW as a writing system for a language in
and of itself, a conceptual language with its own grammar, so that the
DELEGS system would need to be augmented at a separate level to show
English and ASL compared for "production" reasons, in which case I would
put the Gebaerdenschrift with the English not with the ASL. It's a cued
system to show how German appears on the mouth, and I use the facial
expressions to show how ASL appears on the mouth when it accompanies ASL,
not as an augmenter to writing English.
Charles
Butler
chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
240-764-5748
Clear writing moves
business forward.
--- On Mon, 10/17/11, Stefan Wöhrmann
<stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM> wrote:
From:
Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
Subject: AW:
Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift
To:
SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Date: Monday, October 17, 2011,
9:07 AM
Hi Charles,
Ingvild, Valerie ...
“how can
a child possibly write that on a board with a piece of chalk and say "o
this is simple".
It is
exactly like this! Just contrary – if you ask a deaf student to
translate a given document presenting a transcription of signed German
or so much harder of DGS he/she is begging I should add more
and more Mundbilder in order to reduce the guessing game to a minimum!
I can
understand that you feel confused looking a a row of perhaps up to ten
facial circles with given mouth-symbols – which I defined to represent
the impression as if speaking German ...
Once
people catch the idea that there is a way to transcribe “Speech” in this
defined way there is no confusion anymore.
All the
best
Stefan
Von:
SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Charles
Butler
Gesendet:
Montag, 17. Oktober 2011 13:37
An:
SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Betreff: Re: Mundbilder in der
GebaerdenSchrift
I guess
people are misunderstanding what I'm saying, DELEGS is the closest
that I have seen to a DOS program that allowed people to show
grammatical differences and word/concept order on the same line or
within visual distance to help Deaf people read in their own
language and compare it to a spoken language rendering of the same
concepts.
I would not
want to show a Roman letter within a sign, I'd be showing a facial
expression probably quite similar to the Gebarendenschrift, but I
don't even know understand why so MANY faces compressed. One may
as well be using Cued Speech as one's augmentation, which at least
reduces the number of faces to a handful not a line of up to 10
faces.
I'm sorry,
when I see a row of faces it confuses me, I think signs, not whole
clusters of faces. It may show every nuance of the articulation of
a face and for showing that to help with lipreading, it may be
perfect, but I look at it and think -- how can a child possibly
write that on a board with a piece of chalk and say "o this is
simple". I guess I'm looking for minimal pairs, what is the
absolute minimum necessary to show an articulation, which for the
Deaf in the US was to strip the body away and show much fewer
facial markers than hearing users expected. The Gebaredenschrift
is created to be articulated by computer, as all these programs
are, but what of someone somewhere with only paper and pencil, not
a computer. If an EMP pulse comes along, all the programming in
the world will not survive but a pencil and paper will still
function.
Charles
Charles
Butler
chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
240-764-5748
Clear
writing moves business forward.
--- On Mon, 10/17/11, Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
wrote:
From: Stefan Wöhrmann
<stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
Subject: Mundbilder in
der GebaerdenSchrift
To:
SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Date: Monday, October 17,
2011, 6:49 AM
Hi
Ingvild,
in order to understand the difference between
Mundbildschrift – a tool to support articulation and
listening-training - and Mundbilder in der
GebaerdenSchrift (what you might write in Signwriting in
order to present information coming from the lips and tongue) you
may download this file.
http://www.gebaerden.de/files/3187/upload/pdf_new/Mundbilder%20in%20der%20GebaerdenSchrift.pdf
Stefan
;-)
Von: SignWriting List:
Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Ingvild
Roald
Gesendet:
Montag, 17. Oktober 2011 11:58
An:
SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Betreff: Re: AW: Please help
us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
I agree, the
Mundbildschrift and the Mundbilder the Gebäredenschrift are not
the same - but very useful.
The writing of 'words' beside
the mouth was / is just a lazy (and formerly only) way of writing
the different mouthing of signs that are otherwise similar. With
Mundbildschrift this can be done directly - so I do not really
miss this oprtunity to write the latin letters near the mouth.
Whith the latin letters the connection to the Norwegian word is
stressed, but letters are not really part of SignWriting
I
have looked at DELEGS - and I am refering to it in my lecture
later this week in the Netherlands - as I am to your
Mundbildschrift - I am recomending the use of SignWriting as part
of making deaf children literate
Ingvild
Date: Mon, 17 Oct
2011 11:46:32 +0200
From:
stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM
Subject: AW: Please help us test
SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
To:
SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Hi
Ingvild and friends,
it is interesting to understand that you agree with my
concept that it is necessary to add information coming from the
lips- and tongue movements in order to “understand” the exact
meaning of a given sign.
“....Signs
that are the same in the hands and other movements, differ in the
mouthing and make distinctive signs that way. NSL claims to have
no homonyms (two or more signs that look exatly the same but have
different meaning) because of this....”
Well my
invention of Mundbildschrift is not the same as my set of
“Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift”
Nevertheless – thanks to the studies of Erica Hoffmann
with my students we found out that it is not correct simply to add
the letters of a word (spoken language) next to the sign in order
to avoid “Mundbilder”
To my very
surprise I had to understand – and this has been such an amazing
experience – that even little deaf children having no idea of how
to write the spoken word – show almost mouth – and tongue movement
patterns that almost look like the same – as a “informed” signer
would perform.
Mouth
movements are part of the usual guessing game trying to understand
from lip-reading. From my actual point of view these
Mundbilder which I defined to stand for special patterns of
movements that might result in specific sounds of a given spoken
language come pretty close to the best representation of what can
be seen (!!!) looking at a signing person.
And you
are right – SignPuddle – so far does not allow to type latin
letters – as you could do with the DOS Program. Did you get the
chance to look at the German new softare Delegs?
Now you
get the chance to look for your signs almost loke in the good old
SWDOS –program.
In
addition to that you are able to change the preferred sign
alternative in every document without any problem. You can copy
this specific sign and paste it with this same variation. You can
write the best translation of the signwriting sentence
beneath this line and hide or show one or both lines! This is the
perfect tool to support deaf students to improve their spoken
language skills. Just look at the attached gif.
Our team
is still busy, busy, busy to complete our vision of an almost
perfect SignWriting – software program to support this idea which
is the motto of our Editor: “Delegs” = Deutsch lernen mit
GebaerdenSchrift" = learn German assisted by
SignWriting".
All you need is a well fed dictionary and this
wonderful program.
All the best
Stefan
Von:
SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Ingvild
Roald
Gesendet:
Montag, 17. Oktober 2011 11:15
An:
SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Betreff: Re: Please help us
test SignWriter Studio Beta
5!!
?
I don't
think I can write a 'word' in latin letters beside a mouth in
SignPuddle, can I?
On the other hand, I DO love the newer
software,
Ingvild
Date: Sun, 16 Oct
2011 09:11:06 -0700
From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG
Subject:
Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
To:
SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
SignWriting
List
October 16,
2011
Hi Ingvild and
Charles!
Two
thoughts...
First, SignWriter DOS
is not past tense - it is not in the past. I am using it right
now, and so can anyone. Just download DOSBOX and install
it:
DOSBOX
http://www.dosbox.com/
Second, software like
SignWriter DOS and SignPuddle 1.6, actually has little to do with
how you write. You can write the Norwegian mouth movements in any
style you choose in SignPuddle 1.6 too - software is not a theory
of writing - so there are no limits to your writing styles when it
comes to Mouth Movements in either software
program...
The only limits to
SignWriter DOS usage is that it uses a smaller symbolset (sss1995)
and it cannot write down in vertical columns - but other than that
there are no limitations on your writing styles no matter which
software program you choose -
I think what you
really are saying is that you enjoyed writing the old way - and
that is fine because you can continue to write the old
way!
smile
-
We are adding a lot
of Norwegian signs and documents - have you notice?I am so happy
about it!
SignPuddle for
Norway
http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle/index.html#sgn-NO
There are close to
3000 signs now in the dictionary and the literature puddle is
growing too - we may need to move some of the individual signs
from the literature puddle to the dictionary puddle, but we will
do that work later - Thank you for all your old SignWriter DOS
files, Ingvild! I am happy to build a sign language corpus in
SignPuddle Online for all countries -
Val
;-)
---------
On Oct 16, 2011, at
5:36 AM, Ingvild Roald wrote:
Another good thing
about the DOS-program was the possibility to write the mouthed
'words' near the mouth, rather than using the later invention of
Mundbildschrift', for those signed languages that use a lot of
mouthing in the signs. Norwegian SL uses mouthing a lot,
especially for nouns. Signs that are the same in the hands and
other movements, differ in the mouthing and make distinctive
signs that way. NSL claims to have no homonyms (two or more
signs that look exatly the same but have different meaning)
because of this.
Ingvild
Date: Sat, 15 Oct
2011 19:03:24 -0700
From: chazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM
Subject: Re: Please
help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Part
of it is to understand that many educational systems use
Sign Writing to show the grammar comparing a local sign
language to the local spoken
language.
The
useful thing about SW Dos is that one can use the spoken
language, the signed language, and fingerspelling so that
one can compare gramatically, very similar to the current
German system.
Thank
you for your attention. Charles
Charles Butler
chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
240-764-5748
Clear
writing moves business forward.
--- On Thu, 10/13/11, Jonathan <duncanjonathan at YAHOO.CA> wrote:
From: Jonathan <duncanjonathan at YAHOO.CA>
Subject:
Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta
5!!
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Date:
Thursday, October 13, 2011, 11:09 AM
Hi
Charles,
I just tried out SignWriter
DOS to see exactly what you are talking about.
I see you can type right over a sign if you want to,
below, above and if you type a long sentence the other
signs move over. Is it important for you that the be
place on top of the signs too? Or is it more
important for you to be able to write some text, then some
signs, then some text, etc?
Had I
realized that so many just LOVE the old SignWriter Dos I
may have gotten permission to duplicate it very
faithfully. With SignWriter Studio some things may
be similar but none are identical. Right now I am
trying to get the three main parts of the program working,
the dictionary ( I will soon have a preview version
available), the signlist (for printing lists of signs from
the dictionary) and the document. Once I get
everything working again after changing to ISWA 2010 and a
new database, I am interested in implement a keyboard like
SignWriter DOS. But first things
first.
The document isn't functional
right now. Also it only deals with vertical columns
of writing for the time being. It can have text
above the sign up to the width of the sign, then it wraps
onto more lines. At present there isn't any way of
writing just text without a sign but it shouldn't be too
hard to implement. The editing of the signs is
done in a popup box instead of directly in the document
like SignWriter DOS. A lot of thought has been put
into it to use the keyboard but it may need a few more
adjustments yet.
Thank you for sharing this
important feature with me and
list.
Jonathan
On 10/10/2011 9:48 AM,
Charles Butler wrote:
Jonathan, What I really want
is SignWriter DOS on a modern system.
In that
program you could interleave written alphabets and
sign writing. Clunky, but effective.
You
could clip signs from a narrative and put them
somewhere else.
It was a true typing system
for signing so that you could assemble a sign by
typing on a keyboard not a mouse. Yes, I know that
the current encoding of the ISWA is dependent upon a
linking of graphemes and coding
equivalents.
None of the Studios or other
efforts have gone back to actual interleaved Spoken
Language and Signed Language.
I can clip a sign and
put it in here
, in
TEXT, when does THAT come back in a program.
I feel like we are continuing to take a great
leap backward. Until one can type or easily
assemble, one can't' send email that is in sign
language with a spoken language. IF Chinese can do
it, I am disappointed in every Sign Writing compiler
on the market that can't interleave.
Charles
Butler
This is an email program and I can do
that, but the SW studio and all other programs do
not do that.
Charles
Butler
chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
240-764-5748
Clear
writing moves business forward.
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email: duncanjonathan at yahoo.ca
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Cel:
9983-1204
Tel: 2213-5285
Skype:
yojoduncan
SignWriter
Studio
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email: duncanjonathan at yahoo.ca
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Cel:
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Tel: 2213-5285
Skype: yojoduncan
SignWriter
Studio
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