Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift
Bill Reese
wreese01 at TAMPABAY.RR.COM
Mon Oct 17 12:56:02 UTC 2011
Charles,
I have to agree with you on this. It seems to be a lot of extra
writing. But, as Stephen pointed out, it could be used for articulation
training but not necessarily the sign itself. As a research or training
tool, you wouldn't have a child in school going to the blackboard to
write it.
I would imagine that, for Ingvild and other's who's sign language
differentiates signs by mouth movements that the different signs could,
conceivably, be written with just the first mouth movement (if they're
dissimilar) or the mouth movement that is more dominant or is different
between signs.
On the other hand, I would also presume it's possible to write a string
of mouth movements without the face, similar to the concept of writing
Latin letters next to the mouth.
Bill
On 10/17/2011 7:36 AM, Charles Butler wrote:
> I guess people are misunderstanding what I'm saying, DELEGS is the
> closest that I have seen to a DOS program that allowed people to show
> grammatical differences and word/concept order on the same line or
> within visual distance to help Deaf people read in their own language
> and compare it to a spoken language rendering of the same concepts.
>
> I would not want to show a Roman letter within a sign, I'd be showing
> a facial expression probably quite similar to the Gebarendenschrift,
> but I don't even know understand why so MANY faces compressed. One may
> as well be using Cued Speech as one's augmentation, which at least
> reduces the number of faces to a handful not a line of up to 10 faces.
>
> I'm sorry, when I see a row of faces it confuses me, I think signs,
> not whole clusters of faces. It may show every nuance of the
> articulation of a face and for showing that to help with lipreading,
> it may be perfect, but I look at it and think -- how can a child
> possibly write that on a board with a piece of chalk and say "o this
> is simple". I guess I'm looking for minimal pairs, what is the
> absolute minimum necessary to show an articulation, which for the Deaf
> in the US was to strip the body away and show much fewer facial
> markers than hearing users expected. The Gebaredenschrift is created
> to be articulated by computer, as all these programs are, but what of
> someone somewhere with only paper and pencil, not a computer. If an
> EMP pulse comes along, all the programming in the world will not
> survive but a pencil and paper will still function.
>
> Charles
>
>
> Charles Butler
> chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
> 240-764-5748
> Clear writing moves business forward.
>
> --- On *Mon, 10/17/11, Stefan Wöhrmann
> /<stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM>/* wrote:
>
>
> From: Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
> Subject: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift
> To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 6:49 AM
>
> Hi Ingvild,
>
> in order to understand the difference between Mundbildschrift – a
> tool to support articulation and listening-training - and
> Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift (what you might write in
> Signwriting in order to present information coming from the lips
> and tongue) you may download this file.
>
> http://www.gebaerden.de/files/3187/upload/pdf_new/Mundbilder%20in%20der%20GebaerdenSchrift.pdf
>
> Stefan ;-)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *Von:*SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
> [mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] *Im Auftrag von
> *Ingvild Roald
> *Gesendet:* Montag, 17. Oktober 2011 11:58
> *An:* SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> *Betreff:* Re: AW: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
>
> I agree, the Mundbildschrift and the Mundbilder the
> Gebäredenschrift are not the same - but very useful.
>
> The writing of 'words' beside the mouth was / is just a lazy (and
> formerly only) way of writing the different mouthing of signs that
> are otherwise similar. With Mundbildschrift this can be done
> directly - so I do not really miss this oprtunity to write the
> latin letters near the mouth. Whith the latin letters the
> connection to the Norwegian word is stressed, but letters are not
> really part of SignWriting
>
> I have looked at DELEGS - and I am refering to it in my lecture
> later this week in the Netherlands - as I am to your
> Mundbildschrift - I am recomending the use of SignWriting as part
> of making deaf children literate
>
> Ingvild
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:46:32 +0200
> From: stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM
> Subject: AW: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
> To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
>
> Hi Ingvild and friends,
>
> it is interesting to understand that you agree with my concept
> that it is necessary to add information coming from the lips- and
> tongue movements in order to “understand” the exact meaning of a
> given sign.
>
> “....Signs that are the same in the hands and other movements,
> differ in the mouthing and make distinctive signs that way. NSL
> claims to have no homonyms (two or more signs that look exatly the
> same but have different meaning) because of this....”
>
> Well my invention of Mundbildschrift is not the same as my set of
> “Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift”
>
> Nevertheless – thanks to the studies of Erica Hoffmann with my
> students we found out that it is not correct simply to add the
> letters of a word (spoken language) next to the sign in order to
> avoid “Mundbilder”
>
> To my very surprise I had to understand – and this has been such
> an amazing experience – that even little deaf children having no
> idea of how to write the spoken word – show almost mouth – and
> tongue movement patterns that almost look like the same – as a
> “informed” signer would perform.
>
> Mouth movements are part of the usual guessing game trying to
> understand from lip-reading. From my actual point of view these
> Mundbilder which I defined to stand for special patterns of
> movements that might result in specific sounds of a given spoken
> language come pretty close to the best representation of what can
> be seen (!!!) looking at a signing person.
>
> And you are right – SignPuddle – so far does not allow to type
> latin letters – as you could do with the DOS Program. Did you get
> the chance to look at the German new softare Delegs?
>
> Now you get the chance to look for your signs almost loke in the
> good old SWDOS –program.
>
> In addition to that you are able to change the preferred sign
> alternative in every document without any problem. You can copy
> this specific sign and paste it with this same variation. You can
> write the best translation of the signwriting sentence beneath
> this line and hide or show one or both lines! This is the perfect
> tool to support deaf students to improve their spoken language
> skills. Just look at the attached gif.
>
> Our team is still busy, busy, busy to complete our vision of an
> almost perfect SignWriting – software program to support this idea
> which is the motto of our Editor: “Delegs” = Deutsch lernen mit
> GebaerdenSchrift" = learn German assisted by SignWriting".
>
> All you need is a well fed dictionary and this wonderful program.
>
> All the best
>
> Stefan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *Von:*SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
> [mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] *Im Auftrag von
> *Ingvild Roald
> *Gesendet:* Montag, 17. Oktober 2011 11:15
> *An:* SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> *Betreff:* Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
>
> ?
>
> I don't think I can write a 'word' in latin letters beside a mouth
> in SignPuddle, can I?
>
> On the other hand, I DO love the newer software,
>
> Ingvild
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 09:11:06 -0700
> From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG
> Subject: Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
> To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
>
> SignWriting List
>
> October 16, 2011
>
> Hi Ingvild and Charles!
>
> Two thoughts...
>
> First, SignWriter DOS is not past tense - it is not in the past. I
> am using it right now, and so can anyone. Just download DOSBOX and
> install it:
>
> DOSBOX
>
> http://www.dosbox.com/
>
> Second, software like SignWriter DOS and SignPuddle 1.6, actually
> has little to do with how you write. You can write the Norwegian
> mouth movements in any style you choose in SignPuddle 1.6 too -
> software is not a theory of writing - so there are no limits to
> your writing styles when it comes to Mouth Movements in either
> software program...
>
> The only limits to SignWriter DOS usage is that it uses a smaller
> symbolset (sss1995) and it cannot write down in vertical columns -
> but other than that there are no limitations on your writing
> styles no matter which software program you choose -
>
> I think what you really are saying is that you enjoyed writing the
> old way - and that is fine because you can continue to write the
> old way!
>
> smile -
>
> We are adding a lot of Norwegian signs and documents - have you
> notice?I am so happy about it!
>
> SignPuddle for Norway
>
> http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle/index.html#sgn-NO
>
> There are close to 3000 signs now in the dictionary and the
> literature puddle is growing too - we may need to move some of the
> individual signs from the literature puddle to the dictionary
> puddle, but we will do that work later - Thank you for all your
> old SignWriter DOS files, Ingvild! I am happy to build a sign
> language corpus in SignPuddle Online for all countries -
>
> Val ;-)
>
> ---------
>
> On Oct 16, 2011, at 5:36 AM, Ingvild Roald wrote:
>
> Another good thing about the DOS-program was the possibility
> to write the mouthed 'words' near the mouth, rather than using
> the later invention of Mundbildschrift', for those signed
> languages that use a lot of mouthing in the signs. Norwegian
> SL uses mouthing a lot, especially for nouns. Signs that are
> the same in the hands and other movements, differ in the
> mouthing and make distinctive signs that way. NSL claims to
> have no homonyms (two or more signs that look exatly the same
> but have different meaning) because of this.
>
> Ingvild
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 19:03:24 -0700
> From:chazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM
> </mc/compose?to=chazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject: Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
> To:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> </mc/compose?to=SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>
>
> Part of it is to understand that many educational systems use
> Sign Writing to show the grammar comparing a local sign
> language to the local spoken language.
>
> The useful thing about SW Dos is that one can use the spoken
> language, the signed language, and fingerspelling so that one
> can compare gramatically, very similar to the current German
> system.
>
> Thank you for your attention. Charles
>
>
>
> Charles Butler
> chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com </mc/compose?to=chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com>
> 240-764-5748
> Clear writing moves business forward.
>
> --- On*Thu, 10/13/11, Jonathan/<duncanjonathan at YAHOO.CA
> </mc/compose?to=duncanjonathan at YAHOO.CA>>/*wrote:
>
>
> From: Jonathan <duncanjonathan at YAHOO.CA
> </mc/compose?to=duncanjonathan at YAHOO.CA>>
> Subject: Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
> To:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> </mc/compose?to=SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>
> Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 11:09 AM
>
> Hi Charles,
> I just tried out SignWriter DOS to see exactly what you
> are talking about. I see you can type right over a sign if
> you want to, below, above and if you type a long sentence the
> other signs move over. Is it important for you that the be
> place on top of the signs too? Or is it more important for
> you to be able to write some text, then some signs, then some
> text, etc?
> Had I realized that so many just LOVE the old SignWriter
> Dos I may have gotten permission to duplicate it very
> faithfully. With SignWriter Studio some things may be similar
> but none are identical. Right now I am trying to get the
> three main parts of the program working, the dictionary ( I
> will soon have a preview version available), the signlist (for
> printing lists of signs from the dictionary) and the
> document. Once I get everything working again after changing
> to ISWA 2010 and a new database, I am interested in implement
> a keyboard like SignWriter DOS. But first things first.
> The document isn't functional right now. Also it only
> deals with vertical columns of writing for the time being. It
> can have text above the sign up to the width of the sign, then
> it wraps onto more lines. At present there isn't any way of
> writing just text without a sign but it shouldn't be too hard
> to implement. The editing of the signs is done in a popup
> box instead of directly in the document like SignWriter DOS.
> A lot of thought has been put into it to use the keyboard but
> it may need a few more adjustments yet.
>
> Thank you for sharing this important feature with me and list.
>
> Jonathan
>
> On 10/10/2011 9:48 AM, Charles Butler wrote:
>
> Jonathan, What I really want is SignWriter DOS on a modern system.
>
> In that program you could interleave written alphabets and
> sign writing. Clunky, but effective.
>
> You could clip signs from a narrative and put them somewhere else.
>
> It was a true typing system for signing so that you could
> assemble a sign by typing on a keyboard not a mouse. Yes, I
> know that the current encoding of the ISWA is dependent upon a
> linking of graphemes and coding equivalents.
>
> None of the Studios or other efforts have gone back to actual
> interleaved Spoken Language and Signed Language. I can clip a
> sign and put it in here
> , in TEXT, when does THAT come back in a program. I feel like
> we are continuing to take a great leap backward. Until one can
> type or easily assemble, one can't' send email that is in sign
> language with a spoken language. IF Chinese can do it, I am
> disappointed in every Sign Writing compiler on the market that
> can't interleave.
>
> Charles Butler
>
> This is an email program and I can do that, but the SW studio
> and all other programs do not do that.
>
>
> Charles Butler
> chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
> <http://mc/compose?to=chazzer3332000%40yahoo.com>
> 240-764-5748
> Clear writing moves business forward.
>
> **
>
> * \_|/\__/ | |_/\_/|_/|_/| |_/\_/|_/ | |_/ (/\___/ \_/|_/ | |_/\___/\_/|_/ | |_/*
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> * /|*
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> * \|*
>
> *email:duncanjonathan at yahoo.ca
> joyoduncan at gmail.com
> Cel: 9983-1204
> Tel: 2213-5285
> Skype: yojoduncan
>
> SignWriter Studio <http://www.signwriterstudio.com/>*
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> *email:duncanjonathan at yahoo.ca
> <http://mc/compose?to=duncanjonathan%40yahoo.ca>
> joyoduncan at gmail.com <http://mc/compose?to=joyoduncan%40gmail.com>
> Cel: 9983-1204
> Tel: 2213-5285
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