Ordering Signs in Dictionaries
Charles Butler
chazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM
Thu Aug 21 12:59:27 UTC 2014
In the dictionary output I put in I did not sort by ASL for now, that was an input AFTER the ordering of the dictionary.
I am using the Search feature in the SignPuddle and going through every LIBRAS sign I have access to and putting in a Spelling so that the computer can sort them. After that has happened and I go back and search by a hand shape, I can then pull into a separate file representative spellings and reduce them to two or three minimal pairs. I don't use the entire spelling from one sign to the next, just what differentiates the next sign in the dictionary. So my current dictionary (the one used in the Symposium) does not have the full spell-out as the actual LIBRAS SignPuddle entry has.
After putting in the LIBRAS signs I wanted, I then added an English column and an ASL column, realizing that between two spoken languages and two signed languages there may be some signs that seem lexically identical but have different usages. This will always be a work in progress.
Your query about directional signs, Andre, would have signs coming one after another if one is using the same hand shape simply changing the orientation of the movement. They are related, but just like the English order "a, about, across, adamant, aegis, after, agronomy, aha, ail, ajar" has completely unrelated terms following one another in a dictionary, my dictionary is pre-supposing that one does not know the sign language at all, one only knows the writing system and is trying to look up a sign that one is coming across for the first time.
If you only see the sign, and don't know it's context, looking at a sign sorted by grammar doesn't help you. If you don't know the sign is for an animal, then looking at "giraffe" doesn't help you, but seeing a neck and a C hand shape lets you look it up.
Charles Butler
chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
240-764-5748
Clear writing moves business forward.
________________________________
From: Jonathan Duncan <duncanjonathan at YAHOO.CA>
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2014 6:10 AM
Subject: Re: Ordering Signs in Dictionaries
Hello Andre,
Wouldn't each directional sign entry be sorted one after another
according to the rotation in a specific order of rotation Charles is
describing? Can you give us a short example of what you mean?
Jonathan
On 8/13/2014 10:47 PM, André L wrote:
>Hello,
>sorting by the rotation of the hand may not be effective in LSQ
because of directional signs.
>
>André Lemyre
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 22:05:50 -0400
>From: duncanjonathan at YAHOO.CA
>Subject: Re: Ordering Signs in Dictionaries
>To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
>
>Hi Charles,
> I watched your talk again today. I realized that what I
call "Sign Sequence" you call "Sign Spelling". I guess it is
"SignSpelling Sequence". So I didn't understand that the
first time. So now after this more attentive listening to
your talk, I see that you definitely are using SignSpelling
Sequence for all your entries and that you are doing them
manually the same way Val suggested in the SignSpelling
Guidelines.
> Am I correct in my understanding that which symbols come
first in the sorted list is different from the way SignPuddle
is sorting?
>
>Your sorting would be sorted by the
>1. First by symbol in the sign sequence's basegroup of the
first hand in the SignSpelling Sequence
>2. What figure (See the individual chapters)? I need more explanation about this one.
>3. The for each basegroup sort by fill
>
>4. In each fill sorting, sort by rotation ( but not distinguishing between right and left hands.
>I see you number both from 1 to 8 in instead of numbering
them all from 1 to 16)
>
>
>
>
>5. Location symbol. comes after hand symbol when comparing.
>From first to last
>No Body - hand to hand, head, body
>
>5.1 Location sorting on hand contact order doesn't seem to be defined yet
>
>5.2 Head location sorting
>
>
>
>
>5.3 Body body
>Indicate the location of the body, placing the graphic in the
left lane, the middle lane, or
>right lane. - Need this explained I'm not understanding.
>Needs to have numbering for which comes first for body location
>
>
>
>
>
>6 - What is contact? No order, any can come first.
>
>
>7.7 - Finger bends (ie no order)?No order, any can come
first.
>
>
>8 - Movement? Vertical, then Horizontal, then Arc - up /
down, up / abaxo + rotation, then up / down bow
>after / below + arc rotation, face bow, face bow + rotation
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Need to define which come first within the vertical, and which come first within the horizontal, etc. Or just current default currently in ISWA2010
>Need to define movement symbols in other planes, etc.
>
>
>
>9 Timing. Which comes first?
>
>
>
>10 Faces and posture.
>Not sure about this one, would like more explanation.
>
>
>Also you need to output a dictionary that has,
>
>hand
>spelling
>sign
>Portuguese
>ASL
>english
>Quote
>
>Do you currently have any way of keeping all this
information in Sign Puddle?
>SignWriter Studio can do
>spelling
>sign-LIBRAS
>Portuguese
>English
>Source
>
>I was hoping to add a second SignLanguage to do a dictionary
with two sign languages but I haven't programmed that yet.
>
>I am still working on finalizing the output for the
dictionary. So I am looking for your input whether you use
it or not.
>
>
>Please fill me in where I am lacking and correct me where I
am wrong.
>
>Regards,
>
>Jonathan
>
>On 8/12/2014 4:47 PM, Jonathan Duncan wrote:
>
>Hi Charles,
>> I enjoyed your symposium “Ordering Signs in Dictionaries” http://www.signwriting.org/symposium/presentation0010.htmlgro
>> I was wondering if Steve and Val had been able to find you a solution. Val mentioned that she thought that Steve would have an easy way for you to do your sorting.
>>
>>
>>I would like to implement a sorting algorithm for SignWriter
Studio as I haven't implemented any yet and I am starting to
produce a Honduran Sign Language dictionary.
>>
>>
>>I understood how you are doing the ordering comparing hand
shapes, comparing rotations, comparing facings, comparing
facial areas, etc. I like it very much.
>>
>>
>>A couple things I wanted to ask.
>>
>>For your algorithm to work properly does the sign sequence
of a sign need to be filled out? I am getting the
impression that your sorting could sort dictionaries without
the sign sequence, is this assumption correct? Or would it
sort signs according to the symbols in sign sequence? It
doesn't seem to take into account the order of the symbols
in the sign sequence, is this correct?
>>
>>Also do you have another document comparing the other
symbols like movement symbols, etc? If so could you send it
to me?
>>
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>
>>--
>>
email: duncanjonathan at yahoo.ca
joyoduncan at gmail.com
Cel Honduras: (504)3141-1171
Tel USA: (347)875-8442
Skype: yojoduncan
SignWriter Studio
--
email: duncanjonathan at yahoo.ca
joyoduncan at gmail.com
Cel Honduras: (504)3141-1171
Tel USA: (347)875-8442
Skype: yojoduncan
SignWriter Studio
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email: duncanjonathan at yahoo.ca
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Skype: yojoduncan
SignWriter Studio
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