[Sw-l] Lexically significant hand positions in ASL

[Valerie Sutton]

SignWriting List
February 26, 2021

Hello David, Adam and Steve!

Thank you, David, for posting to the SignWriting List and starting this interesting discussion.

Also, thank you for sending me and Steve your software description using FSW. I still need to study your description but I am very interested in what you have accomplished with Steve’s FSW development. I want you to know you are welcome to post the information you sent to me and Steve, to the SignWriting List, so we can discuss it as a group. That is helpful at least to me, and I believe, for everyone using SignWriting.

I need to read it more and I hope to find time later today. Sorry for my slow response.

And thank you, Adam, for responding to the linguistic aspects. Of course you know more than anyone on the subject of linguistics and writing sign languages.  

Adam is correct that there are very few instances of signs that cross over the face to touch the left eye.

So I checked the public ASL dictionary in SignPuddle Online, which has around 11,000 entries:

https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/index.php?ui=1&sgn=4

Using SignPuddle’s "Seach By Symbol Frequency” feature:

https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/frequency.php?ui=1&sgn=4

… there were “0” instances of the left eye being written in any signs in the ASL public dictionary in SignPuddle 2.

But there were 23 instances of the right eye written in signs in the ASL dictionary in SignPuddle 2.

https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/frequency.php?ui=1&sgn=4&cat=4&sg=30a&bs=314



So there is something not quite right with the data you have produced, David, about the left part of the face being contacted more than the right. Is it possible that you were in Receptive viewpoint instead of Expressive viewpoint? That would switch everything ;-) We only write expressively now, but technically SignWriting can be written from any viewpoint - side view, top view, front view (receptive), and expressive view (from the signer’s own perspective). The Expressive viewpoint is the defacto writing standard.

Your software idea of making PDFs from FSW is important, and I am impressed with the diagrams you showed us in your description. I look forward to studying it further… 

Thank you!

Val ;-)

Valerie Sutton
sutton at signwriting.org

----------



> On Feb 25, 2021, at 9:58 PM, Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> 
> One thing that you might want to be aware is that SignWriting symbols aren’t necessarily “right hands” and “left hands” by themselves. They can be inferred as such, but it isn’t always consistent as there are overlaps. So a report of what is matching your criteria would be a good thing to look at.
> 
> Another thing to be aware is that the public dictionary is just that, public. Anyone can make an entry which may or may not be done correctly and done well.
> 
> 
> Adam
> 
>> On Feb 25, 2021, at 9:51 PM, David Zitzelsberger <dazitzel at LIVE.COM <mailto:dazitzel at LIVE.COM>> wrote:
>> 
>> >>>As a native ASL user and linguist who is quite proficient in SignWriting, I can probably help with your question. I just want to be sure that I understand what you are asking. :-)
>> 
>> >>>It seems to me that you are wondering about the right hand being written in contact near the region of the left eye. Is that correct?
>> 
>> Not necessarily contact, but essentially yes. Maybe more along the lines of wondering about ASL words which are written by placing a right hand glyph on a head glyph by where the left eye would be drawn.
>> 
>> >>>Do you have some of those written signs that you are referring to? This might give us a better understanding what you are referring to, and be better able to verify or better explain what you are seeing.
>> 
>> I don't have specific signs. I wrote a program to analyze the entire dictionary. Most of it makes sense. The right ear is a common location while the left ear is a rare location for a right hand to be. Except for where the eyes would be drawn. The left eye shows as more common than the right eye.
>> 
>> But that does give me an idea. I could alter my program to report the words and confirm what I'm seeing so far. That's probably a better way to approach it.
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>

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