[Sw-l] Revision 09 for draft-slevinski-formal-signwriting

Sun Jan 30 20:13:16 UTC 2022

I generally don’t use the “~” in my writing. However, when I made the dictionary entry, I needed to separate the 1-handshape form the sign for the number 1. The reason is that the handshape for the classifier isn’t a complete sign as it can have almost any number of combinations. That is actually why I started calling them affixes, and it is comparable to prefixes and suffixes in English. Since English dictionaries will have entries like “-tion” or “in-“, I used the “~” in a similar fashion. Of course, it is only a test at the moment. I might not continue with that convention in the future as it might not be important to clarify that distinction of words and affixes.

I can understand how that convention would conflict with your usage to mean the recessive hand doesn’t move. I don’t think that should be something to worry about since there will always be people using symbols for different conventions. (The use of the 1-handshape to mean in Danish Sign Language what the D-handshape means in ASL comes to mind. GRIN.)

Adam

> On Jan 30, 2022, at 11:57 AM, Uta Meißner <uta.hielscher at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> 
> Dear Adam,
> 
> Thank you very much for your answer. 
> 
> We use "~" for left (rezessive) passiv hand. Yes. Our own definition. And I don't know, whether it is a good idea.
> 
> Tell Adam, why is it important to mark a hand as a classification? 
> 
> With the names, I still understand why it is for when there is a long line underneath. Do you handle it that way?
> 
> But why with classification? I also do not mark for phonetic words that it is an adjective, verb or noun. 
> And I wonder if it's always clear if it's a classification. I have to admit that I didn't deal with classification so much. 
> 
> Thank you in advance for your explanations. They always help a lot to understand sign writing and to improve it further. 
> 
> I would like to briefly report on my observation with the sign search:
> 
> - Hand shape is chosen first
> - ressesiv hand Does not move
> - Both hands move together
> - contact
> 
> And really last but not least the movements. Here, many find it difficult to choose the right movement. 
> I'm really glad that there are 2-hand symbols. 
> 
> Best regards Uta 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Adam Frost <icemandeaf at gmail.com <mailto:icemandeaf at gmail.com>> schrieb am So., 30. Jan. 2022, 20:16:
> I am surprised and love the idea of the null symbol being S00000. 😊 Then I won’t have to use one of the “never used” S10006 symbol in its place for the sorting that I have been doing. 😁
> 
> Uta, I have really been thinking about your issue for searching different types of 2-handed usage, such as no movement, same movement, and opposite movement for the recessive hand. While the timing symbols do work well for that and can be used as a convention for those purposes, I don’t find myself using them in my typical writing. (Val did find me using “~” for a couple dictionary entires, though. Ha! It was a test for entires of what most people call classifiers, which I think will work for my purposes.)
> 
> Having said that, I think you using “~” to mean the second hand stays in place is fine. You can make that a rule for your purposes that should always be followed.
> 
> Another idea might be using searches to find those signs instead of a new symbol. I haven’t really gotten into the new searching of OR search query as I need to update to the core modules that Steve created, but it did get me thinking about how using a NOT search query might make it possible to search for signs that don’t include left hand (white arrowhead) or unit movement (general arrowhead) arrows. That could be used to find the 2-handed signs where the recessive hand doesn’t move. Of course the search would have to make sure it doesn’t include 1-handed signs in some fashion for it to work. But if this were possible, it could make it so you don’t have to have any special symbol for the type of signs you want to be found. The same method of searching could also be used for finding if the movements are the same or opposite for both hands. Just a thought.
> 
> 
> Adam
> 
>> On Jan 30, 2022, at 9:30 AM, Uta Meißner <uta.hielscher at GMAIL.COM <mailto:uta.hielscher at GMAIL.COM>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> I have a wish for further enlargement: 🙂 🙂 
>> 
>> I think it's great that there are symbols the dynamics of the two hands. At first I thought why more symbols. They don't bring more information. But now, I don't look so closely at where the arrowheads are. No, this magic ")" is a very big help. 
>> 
>> I am interested in the story of the introduction of dynamic-symbols for 2-hand gestures. 🙂 
>> 
>> And why s is not a symbol for ressesive hand, which is one's rests (don't move). 
>> 
>> I need this. and this Symbol should be a little point. this should remember on a nail. 🙂 Very simple. 
>> 
>> What do you think? 
>> and you, Adam, the inventor of null-Symbol 🙂 
>> 
>> Best regards 
>> Uta
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Uta Meißner <uta.hielscher at gmail.com <mailto:uta.hielscher at gmail.com>> schrieb am So., 30. Jan. 2022, 18:12:
>> Hi Stephen, 
>> 
>> A question of understanding:
>> 
>> A maximum of 2 hand shapes may be entered per character, so that there is one dominant and one rezessiv hand. 
>> 
>> When writing a sign script, I have to make sure that the dominant hand is entered first, then the recessive hand. Only by the order alone hands are recognized as either dominant or recessive hand. Correct? 
>> 
>> Sometimes you have to enter end-hand shape, because otherwise it is not clear what the end-hand shape looks like. 
>> 
>> I.e. when writing, you always have to consciously enter the zero symbol if it is a one-hand gesture. The null symbol is not entered automatically, right? 
>> 
>> The fact that there is a zero symbol is definitely great for the sign search. 
>> 🙂 
>> 
>> But I need your creative minds on how to incorporate the zero symbol into the sign search. Normally, a selected symbol is always entered in the search field. Only that there is no picture for it, you can not click on it and see the feedback in the search field. 🙈 
>> 
>> Sign2mint.de <http://sign2mint.de/> has a toggle to choose between Iswa and drawing. For drawing, it is easy, a new image can be created with just one hand. 
>> 
>> Best regards! 
>> Uta
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Stephen Slevinski <slevin at signpuddle.net <mailto:slevin at signpuddle.net>> schrieb am So., 30. Jan. 2022, 17:26:
>> Hi SignWriting List,
>> 
>> Today I posted a new revision of the internet draft: 
>> draft-slevinski-formal-signwriting.
>> It includes two changes.
>> 
>> First, I've removed part of the styling string for individual symbol 
>> zoom and offset.
>> When I first added this feature, I thought it was a good idea.
>> However, this feature creates problems and complicates simple processing.
>> Last month I finally realized why it was such a problem.
>> I couldn't find any workable solutions, so I decided to remove it.
>> I will be updating the available software packages in the near future.
>> One step back, two steps forward.
>> 
>> Second, I've added a proposal for a new "null symbol".
>> This was inspired by discussions with Adam Frost and his ideas about 
>> sorting.
>> Talking with Val, this is a long standing issue.
>> I'm still thinking through the issue, but I think this is a good fix.
>> You can read more about it here:
>> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-slevinski-formal-signwriting-09.html#name-proposed-null-symbol <https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-slevinski-formal-signwriting-09.html#name-proposed-null-symbol>
>> 
>> Regards,
>> -Steve
>> 
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