LL-L 'Names' 2007.01.05 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L - 05 January 2007 - Volume 01
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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L 'Names' 2007.01.04 (03) [E

Hi, Ron,

in your answer to J. Rodenburg you used Arial Unicode 10:

> I know Americans that pronounce the name Schroeder as "SHROE-dr" and
others that pronounce it as "SHREY-dr" -- and I include in this their own
names.  In German and Low Saxon names, *ö* is sometimes rendered as "ey" in
American English.

On my screen it's so small that I've difficulties to read it in normal
speed- in special all special characters. I think grade 12 would be better.

Greutens/Regards

Johannes "Jonny" Meibohm
----------

From: "Bryan E. Schulz" <bryans at lodging1.com>
Subject: LL-L 'Names' 2007.01.05 (01) [E]

> Röhrdanz (Mecklenburg-Schwerin)
   ['røːɝdaˑn(t)s]? (RU(R)-dun(t)s)
   perhaps derived from a Slavonic Pomeranian name

Also, could someone explain the pronunciation(American) of the name SCHULZ
which is pronounced as if there is a T before the Z i.e   SCHOLTZ.     Is
there a reason for the 'tz' sound?  I find this also in other German words,
spoken in American English,  where the ending letter is Z.  Is this a Polish
influence?

Thanx,

Bryan E. Schulz

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Jonny, the font thing may have been my fault, not Bryan's.  When people use
various types of fonts their styles tend to carry over to the next posting
and I must try and reset it (which isn't always easy).  In this particular
case it must have defaulted to the correct font style but to the incorrect
size.  Obviously, 12 points is best.  I'll attach my original response to
Bryan below and add my response to the question he asks above.

For the sake of those of us whose eyesight isn't all that great I suggest
that all of us take as our posting standard Arial 12 point, or Arial Unicode
12 point if "exotic" characters are used.  This is merely a polite request
to everyone.  I won't send the font polizei after you if you use other types
of fonts.  Also, if you have trouble reading stuff, please either set your
web or e-mail encoding mode to UTF-8 (Unicode), or highlight, copy and paste
into your word-processing program the text portion you wish to read, and
then highlight it and choose the font Arial Unicode.  Everyone should have
this font these days.  (If you do not, please arrange something ...)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

From:  R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Hi, John! Good to hear from you.

> My own name Rodenburg for instance is pronounced differently in high
> German. I don't know what the low German pronunciation is.

It depends on the dialect. It would be written either as *Rodenborg* or as *
Raudenborg* and pronounced ['roˑʊdn̩bɔːx] or ['raˑʊdn̩bɔː x], using
English-type spelling for non-linguists something like "ROE-dn-bawkh" and
"ROW-dn-bawkh" respectively ("oe" as in "d*oe*", "ow" as in "c*ow*", *kh* as
in "lo*ch*"). Considering the predominance of the areas of Hanover and
Mecklenburg in your family's origin, I'd put my money on the second
pronunciation.

Mind you, "Rodenburg" seems to be a semi-germanized form, "Rotenburg" being
"proper" German.

Many people with this name in Poland had their surname Raudenburg ~
Rautenburg polonized, typically to Garczynski or Klinski.  I don't know what
the Kashubian equivalents are.

> When my grandfather and his brother came to America, one kept the spelling
of
> his last name Schröder (now Schroder) and other changed it to Schroeder in
an
> effort to keep the pronunciation correct. It didn't work. Both names are
> commonly pronounced as you would say them in English.

I know Americans that pronounce the name Schroeder as "SHROE-dr" and others
that pronounce it as "SHREY-dr" -- and I include in this their own names.
In German and Low Saxon names, *ö* is sometimes rendered as "ey" in American
English.

The name comes from Low Saxon and Middle German Schrader ~ Schrœder ( the
latter originally with an open, lax "œ" as in French *cœur*) 'tailor'.
Ultimately it goes back to an old verb *schraden* 'to cut', and this is
related to English "shred."   The equivalent German name is Schneider (from
*schneiden* 'to cut').

> Can any guide by given to low German family name pronunciation?

> Brunkhorst (Stemmen, Amt Rotenburg, Hannover)
   ['brʊŋkhɔˑst] (BROONK-hawst)

> Werner (Langen, Hesse-Darmstadt),
   ['vɛːnɝ] (VAI(R)-nuh) probably German

> Steinke (Kreis Schlochau, Pommern)
   [staˑɪnke] (STINE-key)
   Diminutive of "stone"?
   Germanicizations of Slavonic Pomeranian (Kashubian) *
   kamiónka* "little stone"?

> Krause (Kreis Schlochau, Pommern)
   German/Germanized: ['kraʊzə] (KROW-zuh)
   Low Saxon *Kruuse* ~ *Kruus'* ['kruːze] ~ [kruːˑz] (KREW-z(ey))
   (I suspect the actor Tom Cruise to have this one, or Spanish *Cruz*.)
   Originally "the frizzy-haired one"?

> Schröder (Warsow, Mecklenburg-Schwerin)
   German ['ʃrøːdɚ]
   Low Saxon ['ʃrœːdɝ] (SHRU(R)-duh)

> Meyer (Wechold, Kreis Hoya, Hannover)
   German ['maɪɚ] (MIE-uh)
   Low Saxon ['maˑɪɝ] (MIE-ah)

> Zum Mallen (Schierholz, Kreis Hoya, Hannover)
   It's German -- [ʦʊm'malən] (tsoom MAH-lun)
   If it came from Low Saxon, I'd guess it was:
   Ton'n Mallen [toʊn'maˑln̩] (tone MAHLN)
   and this seems to mean "by the crazy one,"
   "at the crazy one's," "where the crazy one lives"

> Röhrdanz (Mecklenburg-Schwerin)
   ['røːɝdaˑn(t)s]? (RU(R)-dun(t)s)
   perhaps derived from a Slavonic Pomeranian name

I hope this helped.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

Addendum:

Bryan, Schulz, Schultz, Scholz, Scholtz, Schulze and Schultze are variants
of a German name, Scholz and Schotz apparently Central German ones (those
that border on Low Saxon/Low German).

Their pronunciation: [ʃʊlʦ], ['ʃʊlʦə], [ʃɔlʦ], thus "SHULLTS", "SHULL-tsuh"
("u" as in "pull"), "SHOLLTS".

The Low Saxon equivalents are Scholt ~ Scholte ([ʃɔˑlt] "SHOLLT", ['ʃɔˑlte]
"SHOLL-tey") and Scholt ~ Scholte ([ʃʊˑlt] "SHULLT", ['ʃʊˑlte]
"SHULLT-tey").

What you are dealing with in the German versions is the famous High German
"affricativation" from /t/ to /ts/, as you can tell when you compare them
with the Low Saxon equivalents.

This name (also known as Schultheiß in German) originated in the title of a
village chief, the one responsible, the one that bore the blame and
repercussions should the village misbehave.  It was he (and usually not a
she) that was responsible for collecting fees and taxes from the community
and take them to the squire or occupying commander.

Etymology:

Old Saxon: *skuldhêtio*
Old English: *sculdhǣta*
Old German: *skuldheizo***

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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