LL-L "Language politics" 2007.06.08 (03) [E/LS]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  08 June 2007 - Volume 03

=========================================================================

From: "list at marcusbuck.org" <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.06.01 (03) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language politics
>
> that Low
> Saxon abruptly stops at the German-Dutch and German-Polish borders.  More
> territorialism.

I agree that there should be more educational advertising for the
fact, that political borders have nothing to do with language borders
and that Low Saxon is more than Ems til Oder. But we should face the
fact, that Low Saxon in Poland is dead. At least as an active
language. According to the census of 2002 there where 10459 Germans in
the six woiwodships of the north, where Low Saxon was spread formerly.
And only two of these areas were completely Low Saxon (speaking of the
rural languages and of Germans, there were Poles and Kashubians too,
of course). The number of 10459 includes also people who moved from
Germany to Poland and are no natives of the regions. So the expulsion
of Germans was nearly complete. If there are really people left who
maintained their local dialect over the time of 60 years and not
Standard German, then they are elderly and young people won't speak
the language. So Poland is not more Low Saxon now than some regions in
the US. Some scattered speakers, but no future. (Last sunday the NDR
showed the documentary "Die Welt op Platt - Kansas op Platt", it's a
bit astonishing, the generation, in which the passing of the language
completely stopped, seems to be exactly the same as in Germany, so I
guess, "modern life", mobility and media are more important to
language death than prestige of the language. This sunday the NDR will
show "Die Welt op Platt - Brasilien op Platt" btw)

> From: jonny < jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

>> Twiete still survives even in German street names in older parts of
Hamburg.
>
> Mi dücht meist, dat is gänzli' tou eyn "typisch'" Hamburger Wourd worr'n;
> hebb ick annerwärts noch naarms seyhn.

Stood hett to'n Bispeel de Steffenstwiete und de Lange Twiete.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Hi, Marcus!

I agree with you and should have made myself clearer.

Yes, the situation in Poland is one of near language extinction, not only
due to the expulsion itself but also to a long period of post-war
anti-German (and anti-Jewish) sentiments and policies that eventually drove
many remaining minority members out of the country.  But what appears to
become apparent now that German associations in Poland are gaining
confidence is that quite a few crypto-Germans hung on, playing the Polish
part in public and secretly preserving some language and culture in safe
places.  But of course this is a dangerous game in a hostile environment,
and so many people did not pass the language on to their offspring.  To a
degree, this is also what happened to Kashubians, against which there are
considerable traditional prejudices, not least because of their former close
association with "Germans" and Protestantism.

But actually, I had not meant all of this strictly in a contemporary sense.
I was taking into consideration historical aspects as well.  Furthermore,
some of the Low Saxon dialects of Northern Poland are still used in emigrant
communities, especially in Brazil, Canada, Germany and the USA.  There are
numerous Pomeranian associations, both Low-Saxon-centered ones and
Kashubian-centered ones.  And then there is Plautdietsch (Mennonite Low
Saxon) of course, the strongest survivor of the dialects of Northern
Poland.  The geography changed but not all the players are dead and gone.

As for Low Saxon in the Netherlands, I fully acknowledge that a combination
of conservatism and Dutch influences (education) have to a degree alienated
them from the dialects in Germany, the latter of which seem to have changed
more drastically due to Germanization in the wake of accelerating
German-based centralization in combination with fading language
proficiency.  However, I would consider it highly regrettable if the two
groups came to be even more separated.  The speakers share one history and
heritage.  Few of the differences truly separate the speaker communities,
apart from orthography (which could be worked on).  Similar differences
exist for instance among speakers of Basque in Spain and France. speakers of
Catalan in Spain and France, speakers of Bayuvarian German in Germany,
Austria and Italy, speakers of Slovenian in Slovenia and Austria, speakers
of Hungarian in Hungary, Romania, Croatia, Austria, Serbia and Slovakia, and
speakers of Swedish in Sweden and Finland -- and none, to my knowledge,
considers ending their connections.  The only similar case I've been hearing
about is that of Ulster Scots, some of its speakers proposing their own full
identity, separate from Scotland Scots.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20070608/1462643b/attachment.htm>