LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.10.16 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  16 October 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.10.16 (01) [D/E/V]

I think [Y] not [y] is the Antwerp and Belgian Brabantish pronunciation
for Dutch short u, and [I] not [i] for Dutch short i. That's about the
same as in German and German Low Saxon.
In Standard Dutch that's i [e] and u [2], so it is in Dutch Low Saxon.
And in some West Flemish and Zeeland accents i => 'è' [E] and u => "ö"
[9], and e => æ [{], and a => å [Q].
We're not just talking about how these sounds are pronounced in dialects
here, but in accents when people (try to) speak Standard Dutch, too.
A Belgian Brabander will say [rYC] rug = back in Standard Dutch, whereas a
Dutch Hollander will say [R2x] or [r2x] and a West Fleming [r9h]. Also
note the different pronos of 'r' and especially of 'g' as [x], [C] or [h].

The Brabant final g and ch sound just like the German ich laut [C].
BTW I think this sound occurs initially in English words like huge
[C'u:dZ] etc as well, is that right?

Groeten
Ingmar

Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com> schreef:

Ah yes, only after sending the mail I remembered that /y/ actually is
pronounced /Y/ in the Netherlands and parts of Belgium... I keep stubbornly
using my /y/ (and long /y./ [or /Y./] with distinctive length for uu) even
when speaking more or less standard Dutch - the /Y/ is something most
people
I know don't manage to get over their lips (similar with /i/ vs. /I/- for
being Hollandic, or even worse, West-Flemish (no offence - this however is
how the average Aantwaarpener sees it). And of course we don't want to
sound
like people in de Vlönders with their strange /e/ instead of /i/ etc...;)
I myself keep talking after my sister/repeating what she says whenever she
produces those weird /Y/ and /I/'s. Stupid "dictie"classes.

Thus; although not officially, /y/ actually is used quite a lot in belgian
(sub)standard dutch.

But the actual pronounciation of /y/ or /Y/ doesn't affect the main point
of
my above explanation anyway:)

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder < ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.10.14 (05) [E]

What Diederick (ha, hoe gaat het met jou?) wrote is true for short u.
Written u in closed syllables stands for the short sound [Y] or rather [2]
in Standard Dutch, and for [U] in German. U in open syllables in Dutch is
[y], or [y:] before r. In close syllables, this is spelt uu. Examples:
rug [r2x] = back, bukken ["b2k@] = to bend; futen ["fyt@] = a kind of
water bird (plural), buren ["by:r@] = neighbors; huur [hy:r] = rent; fuut
[fyt] = a kind of water bird (singular). In German, long u = [u:],
sometimes spelt uh. I thought, Ben, you were not asking about Old Germanic
u, only how it is used in ortho and prono in Dutch and German nowadays, is
that true? Well, the state border is the pronunciation border as well in
this case: e.g. at the Dutch side of the border "natuur" = [na"ty:r], and
at the German side it's "Natur" = [na"thu:9].

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2007.10.16 (02) [E]

Isn't that: German Rücken = ["RYk_N] instead of ["rYk_h at n] back(s)  ?
At least that is the German pronunciation you can here all the time
both "live" as in movies, TV (krimis) etc.

Ingmar

Ron wrote
Subject: Language varieties

  - rüg (Rügg, Rüch) [rYC] = G. Rücken ["rYk_h at n] 'back' (cogn. "ridge")
  - rüggen (Rüggen) [rYgN] = G. Rücken ["rYk_h at n] 'backs'

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com >
Subject: Language varieties

Ingmar,

That's the casual, northern-influenced (thus LS-influenced) pronunciation,
which is, however, creeping southward, and it tends to be heard in
"real-live" movies. To many people it still sounds distinctly northern, and
they might fault you for teaching it to foreigners. However, my prediction
is that with time it will take over.

The schwa sound is still heard in the south and also in "better," more
formal modes (speeches, theater, etc.) elsewhere.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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