LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.01.09 (01) [E]

Wed Jan 9 15:31:09 UTC 2008

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L O W L A N D S - L  -  09 January 2008 - Volume 01
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From: Danette & John Howland <dan_how at msn.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.01.08 (02) [E]

Hello, everyone.

James Ward brought up some interesting points about language change. Among
them he wrote:

Amazingly enough, I do say "dude" sometimes, usually in the context of
amazement or consternation.  I probably picked this up from being in
the company of younger males who used this term a very great deal.

In my circles I would say the use of "chick" for a female is still very
low, except in set phrases like "chick flick" (a film which will
presumably only really appeal to females) or "biker chick" (a female
motorcycle aficionado) -- the latter itself being a conversational
topic of rather low frequency!  To refer to one or more females
generically in the third person as "a girl" or "girls" is still
conversationally acceptable, I think, but second person use is
basically limited to females, and then primarily for emphasis in the
discussion of an unusual situation.

This reminded me of of something I have become aware of in the last year or
so. The word "dude" may be on its way to becoming gender-neutral. My sole
source for this observation is my twelve-year-old daughter who consistently
in telephone conversations refers to her girlfriends as "dude." When I first
heard this I almost choked, it sounded so strange. Now I find I'm getting
used to it.
And Ron wrote:

I am fascinated by the transition of "guys" to the status of pronominal
enclitic (and perhaps eventually suffix) and its loss of gender in the
process.

Why a word like "guy" for "man"? It's not as though "man" has fallen by the
wayside. It coexists with gender-specific "guy" but in most sociolects the
two are different lexemes and are also assigned to different registers. In
my usage and in the usage of most people around me, "man" is more "serious,"
"guy" more casual, and using them in the wrong contexts could be jarring to
the listener.

I think the overt informality of "guy" is what makes it acceptable in some
circles. What interests me is its development from a personal name (doesn't
it derive from Guy Fawkes?) to mean a pariah, an undesirable or, at least, a
foppish dandy into something that is no longer intended as an insult!

Be well,

John Howland

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Hey, John ... dude!

Recently I've been noticing that young women say "Dude!" to each other the
way only young "dudes" used to. This "Dude!" may be an expression of
cautioning, impatience, surprise or such. So this does seem to be spreading,
much to my surprise also.

So "dude" may be following "guys" on the unisex road.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: I believe that "dude" *must* be pronouncved the American way ("doode"
[du:d]), would sound very "unconvincing" pronounced the non-American way
([dju:d]).

----------

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2008.01.08 (02) [E]

About "youguys":

>>>Very well put! It may be true that such needs were absent or weak in the
past, but for some reason it seems to be here now, probably has been here
for
>>>quite some time but only made it into non-standard varieties until
recently. It looks as though we are currently witnessing its entry into
Standard
>>>American English.

Apparently it also entered into the general (young Europeans'iz) "Standard
International English", at least as appears from my (now) 5 months stay in a
500 man big community of international students... "youguys" is used very
much here in Bergen, Norway as well when we speak English (as we do 95% of
the time, what a shame).

>>>What is also very interesting is that when it comes to
grammaticalization, as in the case of enclitic "guys," we don't seem to be
able to get away from
>>>using masculine forms as gender-neutral collectives, just as it is in
pretty much all other Indo-European and also in all Semitic languages, to
name but a
>>>few. Does anyone know any language in which originally feminine forms
serve as collectives?

I don't know about feminines, but Old Norse and Icelandic, and some archaic
dialects in Setesdal, Norway as well (until the last generation(s), where it
probably almost has died out by now), the neuter is used in this case: for
exemple, "they" = their, thaer, thau, when addressing males, females or a
mixed group respectively. Parallelly tveir, tvaer, tvau (the numeral
"2") are used when talking about 2 masculinethings, 2 feminine words or when
dealing with 1 guy and 1 girl together, respectively.

Greetings,
Diederik

•

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