LL-L "Phonology" 2008.01.25 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  25 January 2008 - Volume 03
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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.01.24 (04) [E/G]

Leywe James, Hey altohaup,

thank you for supporting my investigation!

24.01.2008  James Ward :

 Note too that these
examples from Niblett that you quote (below) all seem to contain front
vowels, which indicates to me that we are probably dealing here with a
palatal spirant, close to English "y"/German (etc.) "j".


close yes, but more behind, velar - with changing location according to the
environment, and voiced.

at the _Emsländische Grammatik_ at

http://books.google.com/books?id=i6NMAAAAMAAJ

On page 16 we have an explicit association of the symbol "ʒ" with a
velar sound:  "Der velare Engelaut g (ʒ) ist zwischen Sonorlauten in
verschiedenen Wörtern im emsl. stimmhaft, im ling. (wie auch im mstl.
und osn.) stimmlos.

So now I don't know what to think anymore.

According the the Osnabrück-born and grown Linguist Niblett,  Mr. Schönhoff
(Emsländische Grammatik) seens to have acted amiss writing that the g (ʒ)
would be voiceless in Osna-Sassisk/-Westphalian.

Anyway, this Emsländische Grammatik seems to be an interesting book.

Niblett referred to it appreciately regarding the development of the
middelsaxon sounds.

You might want to compare some of the phonological information
available on pages 35, 156 ff, and perhaps others.

Yes sure, I'd read these and other pages and paragraphs in building my
assumption on the meaning of Niblett's  [ʒ] - Actually I have an original
volume of the "Emsländische Grammatik" at the disposal from the German
public library system.

Anyway, meanwhile I got perhaps also the final answer to my question from
which phonological writing system Niblett's [ʒ]  should be derived. It came
to-day from Olaf Bordasch, who from time to time looks in the LL-L archive.
Referring to "Die Soester Mundart, Laut- und Formenlehre nebst Texten"
von Ferdinand Holthausen (1886)" the [ʒ]-similar sign it is part of the

phonological system "Theutonista",

formerly broadly in use, at least in Germany, and represents a "Guttural"
(but velar seems to me more exactly from Niblett). Holthausen writes: "These
are [χ] and  [ʒ], the first = ch in ach, the latter the according voiced
sound with weak friction noise". Thanks to Olaf Bordasch as well!

As far as I understand the IPA description and the audio-demonstration this
is exactly IPA [ɣ], SAMPA G.

More over, coming back to my supposedly Westphalian confrere Jan Strunks, I
think that the prononciation of G, also in the middle of words as friggen or
egger, had been velar-fricative in all or most Westphalian dialects, not
only in the prince-bishopric of Osnabrück. But unfurtunately, the original
pronunciation dwindelt away under Standard German (and - less guilty - North
Saxon) influence.

But regarding the other Westphalian Saxon dialects this is only my vague
hypothesis.

Goutgoun!
Joachim Kreimer-de Fries

p.s.
More about Westphalian Saxon:
http://home.wxs.nl/~obd/obo/platt/ned.htm<http://home.wxs.nl/%7Eobd/obo/platt/ned.htm>

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From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com >
Subject: Phonology

Joachim coined a new name above: Osna-Sassisk

That's funny! It's mixed German-Saxon. If it were all based on Low Saxon it
would have to be *Ossensassisk* "Oxen Saxon," since the local Low Saxon name
for Osnabrück is something like *Ossenbrügge* ("Oxen Bridge," "Oxbridge").

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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