LL-L "Etymology" 2008.11.01 (03) [D/E]

Sat Nov 1 17:22:50 UTC 2008

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From: ppvaneeden at ziggo.nl
Subject: Etymology

Is er iemand die me met de volgende kunt helpen? Het gaat namelijk over de
woorden *haas* en *heer*.

 Het woord *haas* is bekend in Oudengels als hara "hare" afkomstig van de
Germaanse *khasan-, Oudhoogduits haso. Maar in het Middelnederlands word dit
woord ook soms gespeld als "*ase*''. Een *haas* was namelijk onder de oude
Germanen een heilig dier. Een haas was namelijk een symbool van
vruchtbaarheid. Is er misschien een verband te leggen tussen *haas* en de
Godengroep *Asen* (Oudnoors *Æsir*)?

 Het woord *heer* (Oudhoogduits *hêriro*). Is het woord *heer *misschien
verwant aan het woord *haas*?

 Hartelijke groetjes,

Petrus van Eeden

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From: rick denkers <info at d-denkers.speedlinq.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.10.30 (04E]

 Moin Jonny,

In mijn etymologisch woordenboek staat geen uitleg van dit woord. Echter, ik
vond wel een andere- een zéér interessante. Het begrip Duivenmelker is
verwant aan het begrip Huisjesmelker (Iemand die onevenredig (veel) winst
maakt met het verhuren van woningen, en vaak het onderhoud verwaarloost).

Als duiven uitvlogen dan wilde ze wel eens een 'vreemde duif' mee terug
nemen als de vlucht thuiskwam. Eerlijke duivenhouders gaven die duif dan
weer terug aan de eigenaar, maar er waren ook de nodige die 'stiekem' die
duif hielden. Die duivenhouders werden duivenmelkers genoemd. Later werden
alle duivenhouders zo genoemd. Het is niet een typisch 'Nederlands'
probleem: er zijn optekeningen van de 14de eeuw en later over Italiaanse
duivenhouders die hun duiven trainden om andere duiven mee naar huis te
lokken.

Beide begrippen zijn overigens te herleiden naar een ander mooi Nederlands
begrip: uitmelken. Onevenredig hoge winsen willen behalen, vaak ten koste
van een ander.

Tjeu,

Rick Denkers

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From: wim

<wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.10.31 (04) [E]

Hi!

In the past i had pigeons, so i was a "pigeon milker" myself..

This name might have  something to do with how pigeons feed their young
ones, they make a fluid in their "krop" in dutch, a milk like fluid, with
which they feed their young, so pigeons give pigeon milk to their young.

Wim Verdoold

Zwolle Netherlands

wkv at home.nl

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.10.31 (04) [E]

Beste Jonny

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

You wrote:

    Today I learned the Dutch word 'duivenmelker', E: 'pigeon fancier', G:
'Brieftauben-Züchter'.

    What's your opinion, dear neighbours in the West? Is it the correct
explanation for the origin of the word?

Mark:

    It is a metaphor, of course, & a good one, hey! Funny & memorable. Mind
you, metaphores are like scabs - don't pick'em.

Yrs,

Mark

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From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.10.31 (04) [E]

Thanks, Luc,

yes, I found an old discussion about D: 'duivenmelker' in the archieves.

Jaap Engelsman wrote:

 According
to the Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal, this and similar words derive
from "koeien melken" (milking cows) in the sense of "keeping cows". The
meaning "keeping [animals]" was transferred to other, non-milkable animals,
such as bees, rabbits and pigeons.

Compare "huisjesmelker" (house-milker, someone who makes a profit from
letting out houses).

In German we also use the term 'to milk sb./sth.' to denote that one makes a
good profit.

Our Reinhard had another suggestion:

(van Dale) ´dui·ven·melk (de ~)
            vetachtige substantie die door de krop van duiven wordt
            afgescheiden en waarmee de jongen gevoed worden

In other words, _duivenmelk_ is the fatty, milky "baby food" stored in a
dove's or pigeon's crop.  I have heard that pigeon breeders remove it and
feed it to the young birds of their choice.  In Dutch, pigeon breeders thus
became known as "pigeon milkers" (maybe because it sounds nice and absurd,
possibly was a nickname at first).

Sounds also plausible. I've heard about this practice, too.

Luc (about the archieves): Which doesn't mean that everything was said back
then and there of course *s*.

But this time there seems to have been said everything which could be said
;-)!

mvg

Jonny Meibohm

 ----------

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: Etymology

Beste Luc & All:

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Luc reports: Just came across the interesting Scots verb "to kittle" for "to
tickle" (E). Scots has this "k-t-l"-structure in common with all the other
North-Sea Germanic languages:

    kitzeln (G), kittelen/kietelen (D), köteln (B), kitla (Icelandic)...

    Some Flemish dialects have "tingelen", which means" to feel a burning
sensation in your skin, after touching a nettle (the plant itself is often
called "nen tingel"). As far as I know, Brabantish doesn't have the noun, we
do use "singelen" for the verb though (related to English "to singe").

Mark: We should add this to a previous string; more hard data. Luc, look up
'kittle-hus' in the Scots, but watch out - it gets meaty!

By the way, I suppose you know the English use 'tingle' also, with the same
meaning? I suppose it is cognate with the Latin 'tangere' = to touch.
English has borrowed that for extended terminology (like 'tangible',
tangential, tangent), but no relation to tingle.

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.10.31 (05) [E]

Dear Lowlanders,

Regarding English *tickle* versus **kittel ~ kittle ~ kitzel* in related
varieties, I thought I was on to a nifty hypothesis, namely that it was *
English* that had retained the older form while related varieties, including
Scots (and Northumbrian?), have adopted and variously developed the
metathesized form.

I got onto that path because we are obviously dealing with our old friend,
the frequentive suffix *-l* (that expresses frequent repetitions of
"small" actions).
We have English *tick*, Low Saxon (an-)*tikken* (*(an)ticken*), etc.,
standing for 'to touch lightly' (which goes nicely with Latin *tangere* > *
tingle* mentioned by Marck above). So, **tik-l-* *"to repetitively touch
lightly" for 'to tickle' made a lot of sense to me. Alas, dictionaries show
the following for 'to tickle':

Old Saxon: *kitilōn*

Old English: *citelian*
Germanic: **kitōn*, **kitilōn*
Indo-European: **geid-* *"to prick"?

Too bad!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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