LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.06 (06) [EN]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 06 November 2009- Volume 06
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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.06 (02) [EN]

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.05 (02) [EN]

Hi Luc:

You said: ╲Oh yes, 'file' does exist in Dutch...primarily it means
'queue', 'traffic-jam'...╡

By the way, how do Dutch-speakers pronounce ╲file╡ meaning traffic jam?

Regards,

Mark Brooks
As written: "[fil@]" so with [i] = "ee" as in English keep.

This is a French loan, I'd gather. Of course in the meaning "(computer)
file", we pronounce it more or less as in English.
But in writing they are the same (though context will tell them apart then).

Regards,

Henno Brandsma

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From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.06 (02) [EN]

Mark:
 On the pronunciation of "file" in Dutch:
in Standard Dutch, so mostly in the state of the Netherlands they pronounce
it as it is written, i.e. "long" ie and the finaly -e pronounced [fil@]
In Belgium, at least in Brabantish (not sure about Flemish) we pronounce it
more the French way, with a sharp short i (which in phonetics is the same as
Dutch long ie! But a different phoneme, as we would pronounce our long ie
with actual length which the Dutch lost), and without the silent -e [fil].
So the difference is only the silent e, but northerners would write it in
"phonetic Dutch" as /fiele/, we as /fil/

Greetings, Diederik

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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon"

Beste Mark,

You wrote:

You said: ╲Oh yes, 'file' does exist in Dutch...primarily it means
'queue', 'traffic-jam'...╡

By the way, how do Dutch-speakers pronounce ╲file╡ meaning traffic jam?


In English spelling: 'feela' or 'filla', because it's felt to be of French
origin. 'Queue' btw, exists in Dutch too, but is written 'keu' (pronounced
köö) and denotes a billiard cue.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

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From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon"

Beste Ron,

You wrote:

On a somewhat lighter (if not somewhat silly) note, Dutch *achtervolger*,
like Old English *Ãœfterfylgere*, thus "afterfollower," strikes me as
sounding a tiny tad silly. How else do you follow but after? It suggests the
possible opposites **voorvolger* and **forefylgere* respectively, which
would be oxymoronic, wouldn't they? But then again, you could push it and
suggest they could mean something like "previous successor."


Dutch clearly distinguishes between 'volgen' en 'achtervolgen'.
The first verb has a general meaning, the second one stresses continuous
action. 'Achtervolgen' is the progressive form of 'volgen' (duratief in
Dutch). Typically, an 'achtervolger' is somebody in a race who is trying to
keep up with the leaders. Also, during hunting for instance, hunters are
tracking down game. The dogs 'achtervolgen het wild', chase the game.
'Achtervolgen' has very active connotations, 'volgen' is by definition quite
passive.

By the way, when chasing or observing wildlife, one is not always located
behind the animals (tracking). Sometimes one moves parallel with them
(neither before, nor behind)...this is also 'achtervolgen'. Some predators
catch their prey this way too, which I definitely consider a sign of
intelligence.

'Achter' is just the comparative form of 'af' (D), 'off' (E), 'ab' (G):
away. Originally, I believe 'achter' may have meant 'further away'. Note the
different evolution of 'aber' (G).

Talking about "Germanic," "Latinate" and language history, to most English
speakers the classification probably is nameless and just a vague notion,
yet they represent tangible sociolinguistic layers in their daily lives.
Since the history of English has been dropped as a subject in many or most
schools the majority of Americans are not even aware that English is a
Germanic language.


What a shame. What's the next step? Drop the subject of 'History'
altogether? Quote: Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to
repeat it (George Santayana)
This attitude makes me think of creationism. Every species (read language)
stands alone and was created by God. Now that is what I call 'diversity'
;=)
Plus, it probably doesn't go down well with some Americans that the name of
the family is 'Germanic' and not 'Anglic', 'Angloid' or something along
those lines. Ah well...you can't suffer from things you don't know.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx, Halle, Belgium

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Lexicon

Thanks a lot, Luc, for enlightening me (or many of us) about Dutch *
achtervolger*.  It's interesting. Now that I know what the connotation is it
makes somewhat more sense. There's the semantic element of "after" as in "go
after" as in "pursue" or "try to catch (up)," although *volgen* itself has
the meaning 'to follow'. And what is the difference between this and *
vervolgen* (and German *verfolgen* which can mean 'to go after', 'to
pursue', 'to hound', 'to trace', 'to prosecute' or 'to persecute')? (If
there were an English cognate it would be *"forfollow".)

Incidentally, as I mentioned quite some time ago, few Low Saxon dialects in
Northern Germany retain *folgen *in the sense of 'to follow'. In most
dialects *folgen* has been specialized to mean 'to attend a funeral', 'to
bury (someone)', as in 'to follow a casket'. You need to use different
expressions to render the idea of 'to follow', such as *nagahn* ("to go
nigh/after"), *nakamen* ("to come nigh/after") and *achterrangahn* ("to go
after on(to)"). So this is an example of the ramifications of semantic
specialization.

What a shame.

You can say again, brother. I understand that this started in the 1960s and
1970s when they tried to make "boring" subjects "entertaining" and took the
supposedly "less important" among those out of school curricula altogether.
In my opinion, everyone ought to be taught about the history of their own
language and of any language they study. The problem is that to remedy past
neglect you need teachers that know the subject, and there aren't many of
those to go around. Why? *Because* of the neglect. This goes to show you
what lasting effects educational neglect can have. And then people are
surprised when "kids" don't even understand what Shakespeare was about,
leave alone Chaucer.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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