LL-L "Etymology" 2010.04.26 (01) [DE-EN-NDS]

Mon Apr 26 17:33:28 UTC 2010

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L O W L A N D S - L - 26 April 2010 - Volume 03
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From: Jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.04.25 (01) [DE-EN-NDS-NL]

Beste Marcus,

(let's continue in E, because of "the look over the fence" ;-))

you wrote to *"rütentütig":*

Villicht sett sik de Utdruck tohoop ut "rütten" (Grundverb von Wöör so as
"zerrütten" un "rütteln"), "en" (westliche Form von "un") un "tütt" as
3. Person
Singular von "tehn". "Jemand, der an etwas rüttelt und zieht" -> "jemand,
der sich ungebührlich benimmt" -> "Kasper, Hampelmann".
Perhaps originally a marionette? Could fit! Just a rhyming reduplication,
like 'hurly-burly', 'Techtelmechtel', 'Kuddelmuddel' and Kevins
'rootin'-tootin'?!

Wat villicht beter passt: In dat Antwerpsch Idioticon steiht de Indrag "rut"
in, wat en "flauwe kul" is, also "Unsinn". "Tut" is op nedderlandsch en
minnachtig Woord för en Fro. "Ruttentut" kannst denn villicht plattdüütsch
mit "Tüdeltrien" weddergeven. De Etymologie von "rut" un "tut" kenn ik aver
nich.

This also sounds interesting!

Du kannst ja maal be beiden Quellen nömen un ziteern, villicht lett sik denn
ehrder wat seggen.

One is my own daughter (who didn't grow up in my family but has good
contacts to LS ['Stader Geest' und Cuxhaven-Fischhallen]), the other one a
middle-aged lady from Hamburg, the third one an older ex-neighbour who also
had been living in Hamburg. My sources mostly are real people ;-)!

The same holds true for *"atschewiner"* - this time the same lady fom
Hamburg and her new 'Lebensgefährte' (mate), a neighbour of mine and native
LS-speaker. They both mentioned *'atschewiner' *when I asked them for the
verification of *'rütentütig'*, but they had completely different but
Hamburgish sources.

Perhaps I should point out that my native neighbour didn't know *
'rütentütig'* at all.

Allerbest un' bedankt!

Jonny Meibohm

Lower Saxony, Germany

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2010.04.25 (03) [EN]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Etymology

Congratulations, Kevin! I think you did it.

Of course I was familiar with “rootin’-tootin’”, but I didn’t make the
connection.

I wonder if this goes back to the late 19th century with its fascination
with the "Wild West" in Germany and large-scale emigration to the USA from
Northern Germany.

Do you suggest a loan from or to English? "fascination with the Wild West"
is an argument for a loan from English to Dutch/Low Saxon, "large-scale
emigration to the USA from Northern Germany" is an argument for a loan from
Low Saxon to English.

A loan from English seems unlikely to me because it's hard to believe that
an English loan appears in both Dutch and German Low Saxon dialects (with
different literary languages) but nowhere in the literature of the two
standard languages. That could happen to a nautical term, but rather not to
a "Wild West" term.

A loan to English is possible. But I had a look at the earliest records of
the word. Low Saxon "Rütentüt" (judging from texts available on Google
Books) is first attested 1897 in a text of Ilse Frapan from Hamburg. The
first Dutch records are "rutentuut" in the 1902 issue of "Driemaandelijksche
bladen", p. 51, and "ruttentut" in the "Idioticon van het antwerpsch
dialect" of 1903, p. 1052. The Dutch and Low Saxon words are both scarcely
attested. It's likely that they are much older than 1897 and 1902. The first
English record is in "A glossary of the Lancashire dialect", 14, p. 228,
from 1875. Lancashire, England. So it's not a New World word and it's very
unlikely that this is a loan from Dutch or Low Saxon.

I admit, the words look invitingly close, but I don't really see a base for
a loan in either direction.

Marcus Buck

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>

Subject: Etymology

Thanks for the details, Marcus.

I consider either way a possibility.

The Hamburg connection ought to remind us of a period of fairly strong
connections with America, first via freight shipping and then via intensive
passenger traffic from Hamburg to North America, especially in the 19th and
early 20th centuries. There are Hamburg’s sailors’ sea shanties, some of
them with chunks of English in them, and there it a lot of seafaring jargon
that made its way into Hamburg Low Saxon and Missingsch (e.g., *Törn* ‘short
trip’).

As for Dutch connections, they were long-lasting and sometimes intensive.
Hamburg Low Saxon in particular borrowed (and further developed) Dutch words
such *suutje* ‘gently’, *Bontje* ‘candy’, and *Buttje* ‘little boy’.

In theory, at least, the “rootin’-tootin’” expression could have been passed
along from Dutch to Low Saxon after coming from America, or the other way,
for all I know.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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