LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.08.10 (04) [DE-NL]

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From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.08.10 (03) [NL]



From: Joachim <Osnabryg+Lowlands at googlemail.com<Osnabryg%2BLowlands at googlemail.com>>




2. Hoe maken ze het in de Nedersaksische varieteiten in Nederland?


Material for this question can be found at
<http://www.meertens.knaw.nl/projecten/mand/GTRPdataperitem.html><http://www.meertens.knaw.nl/projecten/mand/GTRPdataperitem.html>.
There is indeed a very clear isogloss between Frankish and Saxon in the
maps. The Saxon area of the Netherlands has '-(e)n' while the Frankish area
of the Netherlands mostly has '-e' (although West Flemish and some other
smaller regions have '-(e)n').

 3. Is deze ontwickeling van het suffix van [ɘn] tot [ɘ] wellicht
(taal-)wetmatig? - Is de (Hoog- en Laag-)Noorduitse uitspraak [ɘn] of [n]
alleen de volg van 400 jaar dressuur in Standaard-(Hoog-)Duits, die in het
algemeene meer in het Noorden heeft bewerkt dan in het Zuiden van Duitsland?



The 'vowel + n' suffix is proto-Germanic. '-en' is a reduced form of the
proto-Germanic original and '-e' is an even more reduced form.

Material about the modern forms on German territory can be found at
<http://diwa.info/> <http://diwa.info/>.
The maps show that the area from the Rhineland to Alemannia has '-e' or '-a'
while the Low Saxon regions, Upper Saxony and Bavaria have '-(e)n'. In the
Netherlands the isogloss almost perfectly matched the Saxon/Frankish border,
but in Germany the isogloss leaves the border and runs through Frankish
areas.

The answer to your question is thus, that '-(e)n' is the original form that
was valid for Low Saxon at any time. '-e' is an innovation restricted to the
regions along the Rhine. There was no particular influence of the German
standard language.

 1. Is de verwandeling van het suffix "-en" in [ɘ] ook Algemeen Beschaaft
Nederlands (ABN)?



I don't speak Dutch, so don't cite me on it, but I guess the official ABN
requires '-en'. But most of the dialects the standard is based on use '-e'
so '-e' became a variant fully accepted in spoken language. (Just like '-ik'
and '-ich' are both accepted pronunciations of written '-ig' in standard
German.)

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> Subject: Language varieties

 Het weglaten van het [n] in het suffix -en is ook een overheersende kenmerk
van de Nedersaksische dialecten van Oost-Pommeren (West-Pruisen), met
inbegrip van de Plautdietsch-dialecten van de Mennonieten (Doopsgezinde).

Kunnen we vermoeden dat dit is een kenmerk, dat werd ingevoerd door
immigranten uit Nederfrankisch-sprekende gebieden?



I cannot rule it out, but I don't think so. The region that is generally
assumed to be influenced by Dutch and Flemish settlers the most is
Brandenburg. Brandenburg doesn't have '-e'. Pomerania and Prussia which both
have '-e' are less influenced by Dutch. I don't know about any particular
Dutch influence on Prussia at all.


Marcus Buck



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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks a lot, Marcus.

Here’s another shot in the dark of mine ...

Do you think there is a possibility of Western Flemish and Zealandic being
influenced by Saxon? There has been talk of Saxons, who began haunting the
Continental and British North Sea coasts well before settling in Britain,
settled on the coasts of what are now Belgium and adjacent parts of the
Southern Netherlands and Northern France.

Of course, this common *-n* thing in Western Flemish, Zealandic and Saxon
could very be coincidence. But there are other common features, such as
/peird/ *peyrd* (vs Hollandic *paard*) for ‘horse’.

Just wondering ...

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



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