LL-L "Etymology" 2013.04.09 (02) [DE-EN]

Wed Apr 10 02:18:37 UTC 2013

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 L O W L A N D S - L - 09 April 2013 - Volume 02
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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Osnabryg+Lowlands at googlemail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2013.04.09 (02) [EN]

Am 03.04.2013 um 23:39 schrieb Marcus Buck:

In the 1930 book "Deutsche Grußformeln in neuhochdeutscher Zeit" there is a
small section about "holl di fuchtig". It cites an expression used in the
Vierlanden: "Holl *di fuchtig* as de Pogg' in't Wáter" (…). So there are at
least some native speakers who identify the word to mean "wet". Although
that doesn't mean that this identification is universal or the original
meaning.

*So finally a competent support for my first assumption:*

*LS fuchtig = DE feucht NL vochtig EN wet etc.* and by that an argument *
against* the derivation of LS 'fuchtig' from Frisian 'fjochterig', Scots *
fechtie* [ˈfe:çti:] 'brave', 'courageous' (from fecht [fe:çt] 'to fight'),
which came from Hannelore Hinz and Reinhard Hahn (and persuaded me for the
time until your new posting, Marcus).
So, the question seems at least "open". I tend to come back to my
interpretation in my posting of 2012-03-28:

So might be, the origin of word within the phrase was NL *vochtig *LS [fy:χtɪx]
EN fresh, but then in the meaning mixed with the nowadays Germany-wide used
*fuchtig [fuχtɪx]* in the sense of EN *fighting*.

Within this, I have to correct »LS [fy:χtɪx]« into LS ['foχtɪx | 'fuχtɪx],
/fochtig | fuchtig/ because I agree with Marcus' argument

there seems to be an additional rule that changed "üücht" to "ücht":
"süchten" (German "seufzen") and "lüchten" (German "leuchten").

I think, Marcus' instances have the stronger convincibility:

The book also references the "Versuch eines bremisch-niedersächsichen
Wörterbuches" dictionary, volume I, page 461, where it says (I cite the
full entry on "fucht"):
*FUCHT, feucht, uvidus. A.S. fucht. H. vucht und vocht. Sik fucht holden:
sich wohl und tapfer halten, strenuum se gerere. Eigentlich will es sagen:
bis zum Schweiß arbeiten. Im Scherz sagt man auch: holt di fucht, averst
pisse nig in 't Bedde: halt dich wohl.*

This dictionary is from 1767, so the expression is definitely very old."Versuch
eines bremisch-niedersächsichen Wörterbuches" is one of or even _the_
oldest dictionary of Modern Low Saxon.

Thank you Marcus for your elucidation!

Hannelore, Reinhard and other friends of LS "Haul/Holl ju fuchtig!", *do
you agree with Marcus' arguments or have you still supplementary arguments
for your derivation LS fuchtig < fechten?*

Met echt-westfœlsken »Goutgaun!«
joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries -
Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow  skype kreimer-de_fries

----------

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 L O W L A N D S - L - 09 April 2013 - Volume 02
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
 Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Osnabryg+Lowlands at googlemail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2013.04.09 (02) [EN]

Am 03.04.2013 um 23:39 schrieb Marcus Buck:

In the 1930 book "Deutsche Grußformeln in neuhochdeutscher Zeit" there is a
small section about "holl di fuchtig". It cites an expression used in the
Vierlanden: "Holl *di fuchtig* as de Pogg' in't Wáter" (…). So there are at
least some native speakers who identify the word to mean "wet". Although
that doesn't mean that this identification is universal or the original
meaning.

 *So finally a competent support for my first assumption:*

*LS fuchtig = DE feucht NL vochtig EN wet etc.* and by that an argument *
against* the derivation of LS 'fuchtig' from Frisian 'fjochterig', Scots *
fechtie* [ˈfe:çti:] 'brave', 'courageous' (from fecht [fe:çt] 'to fight'),
which came from Hannelore Hinz and Reinhard Hahn (and persuaded me for the
time until your new posting, Marcus).

So, the question seems at least "open". I tend to come back to my
interpretation in my posting of 2012-03-28:

So might be, the origin of word within the phrase was NL *vochtig *LS [fy:χtɪx]
EN fresh, but then in the meaning mixed with the nowadays Germany-wide used
*fuchtig [fuχtɪx]* in the sense of EN *fighting*.

Within this, I have to correct »LS [fy:χtɪx]« into LS ['foχtɪx | 'fuχtɪx],
/fochtig | fuchtig/ because I agree with Marcus' argument

there seems to be an additional rule that changed "üücht" to "ücht":
"süchten" (German "seufzen") and "lüchten" (German "leuchten").

I think, Marcus' instances have the stronger convincibility:

The book also references the "Versuch eines bremisch-niedersächsichen
Wörterbuches" dictionary, volume I, page 461, where it says (I cite the
full entry on "fucht"):
*FUCHT, feucht, uvidus. **A.S. fucht. H. vucht und vocht. Sik fucht holden:
sich wohl und tapfer halten, strenuum se gerere. Eigentlich will es sagen:
bis zum Schweiß arbeiten. Im Scherz sagt man auch: holt di fucht, averst
pisse nig in 't Bedde: halt dich wohl.*

This dictionary is from 1767, so the expression is definitely very
old."Versuch eines bremisch-niedersächsichen Wörterbuches" is one of or
even _the_ oldest dictionary of Modern Low Saxon.

Thank you Marcus for your elucidation!

Hannelore, Reinhard and other friends of LS "Haul/Holl ju fuchtig!", *do
you agree with Marcus' arguments or have you still supplementary arguments
for your derivation LS fuchtig < fechten?*

Met echt-westfœlsken »Goutgaun!«
joachim

--
Kreimer-de Fries -
Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow  skype kreimer-de_fries

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Joachim!

Personally, I feel that folk etymology based on inter-dialectal borrowing
is at play here.

I know Low Saxon *fucht* as ‘moist’ (cf. German *feucht*), alternatively *
fuchtig*. (*–ig* is the Low Saxon and German equivalent of Modern English *
–y*). However, on the basis of predictable shifts *from German*, this
should be* *füücht*. Yet, Dutch *vochtig* for ‘moist’ indicates that Low
Saxon *fuchtig ~ fochtig* is correct, since Dutch, West Flemish, Limburgish
and Low Saxon (*Plattdeutsch*) are members of “Low German”.

The Eastern Friesland version *fuchtig* ‘courageous’, ‘feisty’,
‘belligerent’, may have been imported into other Low Saxon dialects, where
other Low Saxon dialects should, hypothetically speaking, have **fechtig*(from
*fecht-* ‘fight’). This may have created a homonym: *fuchtig* (1) ‘moist’,
‘clam’, (2) ‘courageous’, ‘feisty’, ‘belligerent’.

A less complex case of inter-dialectal Low Saxon borrowing is
*drög’*[drœˑɪj] ‘dry’, ‘uninteresting’, being imported into Northern
“High” German
and from there into *eu* dialects of Low Saxon (mostly of the Lower Elbe
Region, including Hamburg) which predictably would have [drɔˑɪç] (*dreuch*~
*dräuch*) for the same.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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