what to make of the Spanish IRSE?
DEVERETT at BENTLEY.EDU
Mon Sep 15 21:34:29 UTC 2014
Among the many treatments of the variety of uses of SE across Romance, I have a chapter on it (and other articles therein referenced) I my book, Why There Are No Clitics, available on-line via LingBuzz.
Great clitic and leads to some interesting typological predictions.
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 15, 2014, at 15:21, "Donald Stilo" <stilo at EVA.MPG.DE<mailto:stilo at EVA.MPG.DE>> wrote:
Regarding Juan se murió *de un disparo: But me muero de hambre is OK, isn't it? Why? Is it because it is not external?
And to Sergey: in addition to Spanish irse, note French: je m'en vais, Italian me ne vado "I'm leaving, going away".
On Sep 15, 2014, at 5:21 PM, ENRIQUE BERNARDEZ SANCHIS wrote:
Dear Sergey. No mystery here. The reflexive marker came to be used with a variety of senses, all of them impliying the action is seen as restricted to the participant; it may be reflexive (afeitarse: to shave (oneself)) to pure middle voice: "caerse" "to fall down" implies that no external entity or agent is responsible for the fall; to inceptive "irse" which usually marks the beginning of the process of going. Another use of the -se form (a pronoun in fact) is a kind of emphasis on the absolute limitation of the action/process to the participant: rather like "caerse" but I would see in a more radical way: morirse "to die" is different from simple morir (also to die). The first (-se form) just tells us that the person died, with the specific exclusion of any external participant, whereas in morir (or in caer) the external participant, more or less agentive, is not excluded. You cannot say "Juan se murió de un disparo" (Juan died from a shot / because of a shot...), whereas Juan murió de un disparo is perfectly common.
Any history of the Spanish Language (there are many, in Spanish, German, French, also in Russian, English...) you will find the historical process leading from the reflexive to this array of "intransitivised" constructions.
2014-09-15 15:39 GMT+02:00 Sergey Lyosov <sergelyosov at inbox.ru<mailto:sergelyosov at inbox.ru>>:
what do you think –se is doing on the Spanish irse ‘to go away, to leave’? How come a reflexive marker on a detransitive verb of motion?
Catedrático de Lingüística General
Departamento de Filología Románica, Filología Eslava y Lingüística General
Facultad de Filología
Universidad Complutense de Madrid
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