[Lingtyp] Query: Elided Intensification
Bastian Persohn
persohn.linguistics at gmail.com
Mon Apr 12 11:40:24 UTC 2021
Something very similar to what Pier Marco Bertinetto mentioned for Italian is also found in German:
(1) Mark ist so groß wie Peter.
'M. is as tall as P.ʼ
(2) Bist du jetzt zufrieden? Und wie!
ʻAre you happy now? Very much so!ʼ
A quick and dirty web search gives results such as the following one:
(3) Trotz vieler Probleme und Sorgen sind wir mit der Situation zurechtgekommen. Und wie! Wir haben keine Verluste geschrieben
ʻDespite many issues we could manage the situation. And boy did we manage it! We generated no losses.ʼ
According to the discussion on dict.leo.org <http://dict.leo.org/>, from where example (3) was pulled, some speakers of Englis
accept And how! (https://dict.leo.org/forum/viewUnsolvedquery.php?idForum=1&idThread=970086&lp=ende&lang=de <https://dict.leo.org/forum/viewUnsolvedquery.php?idForum=1&idThread=970086&lp=ende&lang=de>).
The Cambridge dictionary seems to agree (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/how#how__3 <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/how#how__3>).
Best,
Bastian
> Am 12.04.2021 um 13:19 schrieb Pier Marco Bertinetto <piermarco.bertinetto at sns.it>:
>
> Frans's comment made me realize that one has the same in Italian:
> "Come" is a comparative marker (an equalizer):
> Gino è alto come Piero
> 'G. is as tall as P.'
> But then one has "eccome" (< "e come" 'and as') which is an intensifier:
> Sei felice? Eccome!
> 'Are you happy? Very much!'
> It may also be turned into a question: "eccome no?" 'how could it be otherwise?', which retains much of the original comparative meaning.
> Best
> Pier Marco
>
>
> Il giorno lun 12 apr 2021 alle ore 11:10 Frans Plank <frans.plank at uni-konstanz.de <mailto:frans.plank at uni-konstanz.de>> ha scritto:
>
>
>
>
> Und wie, Guillaume! (Which is German.)
>
> Frans
>>
>>
>> Le 12/04/2021 à 00:35, David Gil a écrit :
>>> Thanks to those who have responded to my query so far, either to me personally or on the list.
>>>
>>> I'd like to clarify what I had in mind by "elided" or "incomplete". I am using these terms grammatically / semantically, to express the intuition that there's something missing after the intensifier, given that forms such as Papuan Malay sampe and (Australian) English as usually occur in construction with another, following expression (or "complement").
>>>
>>> I was not implying that the construction in question should "sound incomplete" (to use Ilana's words below). But it's interesting that she characterizes the Australian English as construction as being associated with a "particular intonation", since the same is true also for the Papuan Malay construction with sampe. Though the specifics of the intonation contour seem to differ (in Papuan Malay, the peak of the contour falls on the preceding word, while the intensifier sampe is associated with low pitch, sounding like an afterthought).
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/04/2021 00:58, Ilana Mushin wrote:
>>>> I can also confirm ‘sweet as’ in Australian English. I’ve seen it on advertising billboards. I think the construction ‘X as’ can be somewhat productive - eg I’ve certainly heard ‘dumb as’. There is a particular intonation that goes with the construction - the ‘as’ is lengthened and has a rise-fall contour so it doesn’t sound incomplete (this is impressionistic - someone may have a better idea of the prosody than me).
>>>>
>>>> Ilana
>>>>
>>>> Associate Professor Ilana Mushin
>>>>
>>>> Reader in Linguistics
>>>>
>>>> President, Australian Linguistic Society
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Co-Editor, Interactional Linguistics (https://benjamins.com/catalog/il <https://benjamins.com/catalog/il>)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> School of Languages and Cultures
>>>>
>>>> University of Queensland
>>>>
>>>> St Lucia, QLD 4072.
>>>>
>>>> Ph: (07) 3365 6810 <tel:(07)%203365%206810>
>>>>
>>>> CRICOS Provider No: 00025B
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I acknowledge the Jagera and Turrbal peoples on whose land I live and work. Their sovereignty was never ceded.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 12 Apr 2021, at 5:27 am, David Gil <gil at shh.mpg.de> <mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm interested in exploring the properties and geographical distribution of a novel (well, to me at least) construction type which might be termed "Elided Intensification'. I'll explain with an example. In Papuan Malay, property-denoting and some other words may be intensified by the addition of sampe, a word whose other, more basic functions, include 'arrive' and 'until', e.g.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (1) Enak sampe
>>>>>
>>>>> nice SAMPE
>>>>>
>>>>> 'Very nice.'
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My informal "interpretation" of this construction is that it involves, or at least originated in, some kind of understood expression such as "nice arriving (at complete fulfillment)", or "nice until (completion)". As Papuan Malay is largely head-initial, it kind of feels like something is missing after the word sampe. (In Malay/Indonesian, this construction seems to be restricted geographically to the north coast of New Guinea and possibly also Northern Maluku; elsewhere it is absent.)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So far, I am familiar with two other potential cases of Elided Intensification. The first is from Ambel, an Austronesian language spoken in the Raja Ampat archipelago of the northwest coast of New Guinea, in a region where Papuan Malay is also spoken. As described by Arnold (2018:145, pers comm), aya 'until' is used in a construction closely resembling that in (1):
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (2) Anlómo aya
>>>>>
>>>>> bleed.3SG.INAN AYA
>>>>>
>>>>> ‘It bled a lot.’
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Arnold, Laura. 2018. A Grammar of Ambel, An Austronesian Language of West New Guinea. PhD Dissertation. Edinburgh: University of Edinburgh.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The second example, which I just came across, and which prompted this query, is Australian English. In the Wikipedia entry for Australian English, in a paragraph which deals with the infensification of adjectives, the following rather tantalizing passage occurs:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "In informal speech, incomplete comparisons are sometimes used, such as "sweet as" (as in "That car is sweet as.")."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So here it's comparative 'as' rather than 'arrive'/'until' that comes after the word being intensified, but still, all these cases seem to involve intensification with the elision of some kind of argument associated with the property word and denoting an extreme extent of the property in question.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My questions:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Could speakers of Australian English please confirm the existence of this construction, and comment on it. Does it occur in other varieties of English? (It was certainly completely new to me!)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Is anybody familiar with possible cases of Elided Intensification in other languages, in Australia, New Guinea or elsewhere? On the flimsy basis of three examples, it looks like an Australian / New Guinea areal feature: is this the case? For the Australia / New Guinea region I'd also appreciate negative data, of the form "no, my language definitely doesn't do this".
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. Any further comments and suggestions ...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> David Gil
>>>>>
>>>>> Senior Scientist (Associate)
>>>>> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
>>>>> Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
>>>>> Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
>>>>>
>>>>> Email: gil at shh.mpg.de <mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de>
>>>>> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
>>>>> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Lingtyp mailing list
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>>> --
>>> David Gil
>>>
>>> Senior Scientist (Associate)
>>> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
>>> Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History
>>> Kahlaische Strasse 10, 07745 Jena, Germany
>>>
>>> Email: gil at shh.mpg.de <mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de>
>>> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
>>> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091
>>>
>>>
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>>
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> --
> =========================================================
> |||| Pier Marco Bertinetto
> ------ professore emerito
> /////// Scuola Normale Superiore
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> /////// I-56126 PISA
> ------- phone: +39 050 509111
> ///////
> ------- HOME
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> /////// phone: +39 0584 652417
> ------- cell.: +39 368 3830251
> =========================================================
> editor of "Italian Journal of Linguistics"
> webpage <https://www.sns.it/it/bertinetto-pier-marco <https://www.sns.it/it/bertinetto-pier-marco>>
> "Laboratorio di Linguistica" <http://linguistica.sns.it <http://linguistica.sns.it/>>
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