[Lingtyp] Lingtyp Digest, Vol 88, Issue 3

Fri Jan 7 12:58:20 UTC 2022

Dear Jesús, all,
In Babungo (Grassfields Bantu, Cameroon), the verb kɔ́ 'give' is used for 'until' (Schaub 1985).Similarly to what Laura and Joey pointed out, in Cameroonian French it is common to use 'jusqu'à' clause finally, especially to express intensity. For example: 'Elle a pleuré jusqu'ààà' = 'She cried sooo much'. The lengthening of the vowel also emphasizes the intensity.
Best wishes,
Liliane Hodieb

    Le jeudi 6 janvier 2022, 18:06:39 UTC+1, <lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org> a écrit :  

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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: 'until' clauses in Africa (David Gil)
  2. Re: 'until' clauses in Africa (Joey Lovestrand)
  3. Re: 'until' clauses in Africa (ARNOLD Laura)
  4. [FYI] New Positions in the CALC³ Project (Johann-Mattis List)

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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 19:05:34 +0200
From: David Gil <gil at shh.mpg.de>
To: <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] 'until' clauses in Africa
Message-ID: <eaccfc19-afbd-0879-6b03-115e4c58d586 at shh.mpg.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"

Dear Jesús, all,

In a literary style of Modern Hebrew, one way of marking excessivity is 
with the expression /la-ʕayefa/ 'to-tiredness'; examples cited in the 
website of the Academy of the Hebrew Language make it clear that the 
tiredness is not necessarily meant literally.

Website:https://hebrew-academy.org.il/2015/11/01/%D7%9C%D7%A2%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A4%D7%94/[in 
Hebrew]

The same website attributes this usage to Biblical Hebrew, specifically 
Isaiah 46:1 "כָּרַע בֵּל קֹרֵס נְבו, הָיוּ עֲצַבֵּיהֶם לַחַיָּה 
וְלַבְּהֵמָה; נְשֻׂאֹתֵיכֶם עֲמוּסוֹת מַשָּׂא לַעֲיֵפָה", which, in the 
King James translation, reads " Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth; their 
idols were upon the beasts and upon the cattle. Your carriages were 
heavy laden; they are a burden to the weary beast".

However, in this particular Biblical Hebrew verse, "weary" does seem to 
permit a literal interpretation, suggesting that the semantic extension 
evident in Modern Hebrew took place subsequent to the Biblical 
period.But I leave it to those who know more about the history of Hebrew 
than I do to pass judgement on this.

David

On 05/01/2022 18:34, David Gil wrote:
>
> Dear Jesús, all,
>
> In the Papuan dialect of Malay, /sampe/ 'arrive' / 'until' may occur 
> in the following two constructions, which, although not the same as 
> the West African ones, seem to bear a family resemblance:
>
> (1) A sampe
>
> (2) V sampeeeH X
>
> In (1), A is a scalar adjective, and /sampe/ has the effect of an 
> intensifier, 'very A'.This construction occurs only utterance finally, 
> and the intonational peak is on the A, with /sampe/ associated with a 
> low "afterethought-like" contour.
>
> In (2) /sampe/ fuses with an ideophone consisting of a super-long [e] 
> associated with High (or High falling) pitch.The meaning of (2) is 'V 
> for a very long time until X'.
>
> Similar constructions occur also in some of the local languages of 
> North West New Guinea; Laura Arnold has looked at some of these.
>
> These two constructions differ from the West African ones in that they 
> lack an explicit expression meaning 'getting tired':in (1) there is 
> nothing, while in (2) there is an overt expression X that is 
> interpreted literally.However, they share with the West African 
> constructions a somewhat unexpected association between a form meaning 
> 'until' and a notion of excessivity, or, in the case of (2) 'long time'.
>
> I'd be interested in hearing of similar constructions in other languages.
>
> David
>
>
> On 05/01/2022 17:56, Jesus Francisco Olguin Martinez wrote:
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I hope this email finds you well.
>>
>> I send you this message because in my sample there are a couple of  
>> African languages (e.g. Tommo So and Bangime) that have a narrative 
>> construction in which the /until/-clause appears with a verb meaning 
>> ‘to get tired’ (e.g. /I worked I worked until I get tired/). Note 
>> that this clause does not necessarily denote literal weariness or 
>> physical fatigue. Instead, this construction is used in contexts 
>> where speakers express that they carried out an activity for a very 
>> long time (e.g. /I worked I worked for a very long time/). In this 
>> type of construction,  the first clause in linear order denotes a 
>> prolonged activity and is followed by a clause meaning ‘until I got 
>> tired’ emphasizing the extreme prolongation of the first situation.
>>
>> I was wondering if you know any study that has explored this type of 
>> construction or if you know any other African languages that have 
>> this type of construction.
>>
>> Thank you very much in advance.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> -- 
>> Jesús Olguín Martínez
>> Ph.D. Candidate, Dept. of Linguistics
>> /University of California, Santa Barbara (UCSB)/
>> http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jesús-olguín-martínez 
>> <http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jes%C3%BAs-olgu%C3%ADn-mart%C3%ADnez>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lingtyp mailing list
>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> -- 
> David Gil
>
> Senior Scientist (Associate)
> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
> Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
>
> Email:gil at shh.mpg.de
> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp

-- 
David Gil

Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany

Email:gil at shh.mpg.de
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 20:48:29 +0000
From: Joey Lovestrand <joeylovestrand at gmail.com>
To: Denis Creissels <denis.creissels at univ-lyon2.fr>
Cc: Jesus Francisco Olguin Martinez <olguinmartinez at ucsb.edu>,
    "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
    <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] 'until' clauses in Africa
Message-ID:
    <CALftu-qdiq9ozO1YL-TjKTQ=Dns6M_0yx=KKpHjAjo4EKKF6kw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I've also heard French speakers in Chad use the word *jusqu'à* on it's own
(no complement of any kind) to mean "for a very long time". This usage is
apparently attested in other countries as well:

https://www.dictionnairedesfrancophones.org/form/jusqu'%C3%A0/sense/inv%3Aentry%2F2847%2Fen%2F0%2Fls%2F1

Joey

On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 4:11 PM Denis Creissels <
denis.creissels at univ-lyon2.fr> wrote:

> Dear Jesus Francisco,
>
>
> 'Until getting tired' as a way of expressing 'for a very long time' is
> pervasive in West African languages, and is also found in local varieties
> of European languages (for example 'jusqu'à fatigué' in Ivorian French). I
> know of no general analysis of this construction, but the reason is
> probably simply that that, syntactically, it behaves like any until-clause.
>
>
> Note that the West African verbs commonly glossed 'tire' commonly have a
> wider meaning, including 'bother', 'cause problems'.
>
>
> Best,
>
> Denis
> ------------------------------
> *De :* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> de la part de
> Jesus Francisco Olguin Martinez <olguinmartinez at ucsb.edu>
> *Envoyé :* mercredi 5 janvier 2022 16:56:31
> *À :* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> *Objet :* [Lingtyp] 'until' clauses in Africa
>
> Dear all,
>
> I hope this email finds you well.
>
> I send you this message because in my sample there are a couple of
> African languages (e.g. Tommo So and Bangime) that have a narrative
> construction in which the *until*-clause appears with a verb meaning ‘to
> get tired’ (e.g. *I worked I worked until I get tired*). Note that this
> clause does not necessarily denote literal weariness or physical fatigue.
> Instead, this construction is used in contexts where speakers express that
> they carried out an activity for a very long time (e.g. *I worked I
> worked for a very long time*). In this type of construction,  the first
> clause in linear order denotes a prolonged activity and is followed by a
> clause meaning ‘until I got tired’ emphasizing the extreme prolongation of
> the first situation.
>
> I was wondering if you know any study that has explored this type of
> construction or if you know any other African languages that have this type
> of construction.
>
> Thank you very much in advance.
>
> Best,
>
> --
> Jesús Olguín Martínez
> Ph.D. Candidate, Dept. of Linguistics
> *University of California, Santa Barbara (UCSB)*
> http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jesús-olguín-martínez
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 10:01:53 +0000
From: ARNOLD Laura <Laura.Arnold at ed.ac.uk>
To: "lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org"
    <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] 'until' clauses in Africa
Message-ID:
    <DB6PR05MB454976774CD3B8C5E9206E32B84B9 at DB6PR05MB4549.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Dear Jesús, everyone,

Following up on the Papuan Malay sampe 'arrive/until' construction David mentions: yes, there are similar constructions in a few languages elsewhere in north Maluku and northwest New Guinea. In these languages, a form meaning ‘until’ is used clause-finally with both adjectives and verbs (where there’s a distinction) to communicate intensification, emphasis, or an event of unusually long duration. The prosody of 'until' varies by language: in some cases it takes the low 'afterthought' intonation David describes for Papuan Malay example (1), in some it's realised with non-final intonation (despite being in final position), and in some the final vowel is lengthened.

Some examples:

Ambel (Austronesian > South Halmahera-West New Guinea; Arnold 2018)

(1)    Conjunction:    ki=u-toróy    tu      i      aya    ula-lál

EXPR=3DU-live.with      COM    3SG.AN  until  3DU-big

'The two of them lived with her until they were grown up.'
(2)    Intensifier:    na-kalép      aya

3SG.AN-lick    until

'He licked for a long time.'

Ternate (North Halmahera; Hayami-Allen 2001)

(3)    Conjunction:    ngofa~ngofa    gee    oho    sado    i=torifu

REDUP~child    that    eat    until  3PL=full

'The children ate until they got full.'
(4)    Intensifier:    rehe    cum    sado

flesh  hurt    until

'[My] muscle hurts very much.'

This looks very similar to the French construction with jusqu'à in Africa that Joey mentioned. I'm happy to provide further references, if they're of use. I'd also—like David—be interested to hear of similar constructions elsewhere.

Laura
________________________________
From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of David Gil <gil at shh.mpg.de>
Sent: Wednesday, January 5, 2022 17:05
To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] 'until' clauses in Africa

This email was sent to you by someone outside the University.
You should only click on links or attachments if you are certain that the email is genuine and the content is safe.

Dear Jesús, all,

In a literary style of Modern Hebrew, one way of marking excessivity is with the expression  la-ʕayefa 'to-tiredness'; examples cited in the website of the Academy of the Hebrew Language make it clear that the tiredness is not necessarily meant literally.

Website: https://hebrew-academy.org.il/2015/11/01/%D7%9C%D7%A2%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A4%D7%94/[in Hebrew]

The same website attributes this usage to Biblical Hebrew, specifically Isaiah 46:1 "כָּרַע בֵּל קֹרֵס נְבו, הָיוּ עֲצַבֵּיהֶם לַחַיָּה וְלַבְּהֵמָה; נְשֻׂאֹתֵיכֶם עֲמוּסוֹת מַשָּׂא לַעֲיֵפָה", which, in the King James translation, reads " Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth; their idols were upon the beasts and upon the cattle. Your carriages were heavy laden; they are a burden to the weary beast".

However, in this particular Biblical Hebrew verse, "weary" does seem to permit a literal interpretation, suggesting that the semantic extension evident in Modern Hebrew took place subsequent to the Biblical period.  But I leave it to those who know more about the history of Hebrew than I do to pass judgement on this.

David

On 05/01/2022 18:34, David Gil wrote:

Dear Jesús, all,

In the Papuan dialect of Malay, sampe 'arrive' / 'until' may occur in the following two constructions, which, although not the same as the West African ones, seem to bear a family resemblance:

(1) A sampe

(2) V sampeeeH X

In (1), A is a scalar adjective, and sampe has the effect of an intensifier, 'very A'.  This construction occurs only utterance finally, and the intonational peak is on the A, with sampe associated with a low "afterethought-like" contour.

In (2) sampe fuses with an ideophone consisting of a super-long [e] associated with High (or High falling) pitch.  The meaning of (2) is 'V for a very long time until X'.

Similar constructions occur also in some of the local languages of North West New Guinea; Laura Arnold has looked at some of these.

These two constructions differ from the West African ones in that they lack an explicit expression meaning 'getting tired':  in (1) there is nothing, while in (2) there is an overt expression X that is interpreted literally.  However, they share with the West African constructions a somewhat unexpected association between a form meaning 'until' and a notion of excessivity, or, in the case of (2) 'long time'.

I'd be interested in hearing of similar constructions in other languages.

David

On 05/01/2022 17:56, Jesus Francisco Olguin Martinez wrote:
Dear all,

I hope this email finds you well.

I send you this message because in my sample there are a couple of  African languages (e.g. Tommo So and Bangime) that have a narrative construction in which the until-clause appears with a verb meaning ‘to get tired’ (e.g. I worked I worked until I get tired). Note that this clause does not necessarily denote literal weariness or physical fatigue. Instead, this construction is used in contexts where speakers express that they carried out an activity for a very long time (e.g. I worked I worked for a very long time). In this type of construction,  the first clause in linear order denotes a prolonged activity and is followed by a clause meaning ‘until I got tired’ emphasizing the extreme prolongation of the first situation.

I was wondering if you know any study that has explored this type of construction or if you know any other African languages that have this type of construction.

Thank you very much in advance.

Best,

--
Jesús Olguín Martínez
Ph.D. Candidate, Dept. of Linguistics
University of California, Santa Barbara (UCSB)
http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jesús-olguín-martínez<http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/people/jes%C3%BAs-olgu%C3%ADn-mart%C3%ADnez>

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Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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--
David Gil

Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany

Email: gil at shh.mpg.de<mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091

_______________________________________________
Lingtyp mailing list
Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp

--
David Gil

Senior Scientist (Associate)
Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany

Email: gil at shh.mpg.de<mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de>
Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-81344082091

The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. Is e buidheann carthannais a th’ ann an Oilthigh Dhùn Èideann, clàraichte an Alba, àireamh clàraidh SC005336.
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2022 12:38:35 +0100
From: Johann-Mattis List <mattis.list at lingpy.org>
To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
Subject: [Lingtyp] [FYI] New Positions in the CALC³ Project
Message-ID: <0c7669ed-052d-b339-cf9e-1a016f12a220 at lingpy.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Hi all,

thanks to the generous funding by the MPG, the CALC project will be 
continued until 2024. Under the title "Beyond CALC: Computer-Assisted 
Approaches to Human Prehistory, Linguistic Typology, and Human 
Cognition. (CALC³)", we will continue and expand our work on 
computer-assisted language comparison.

This means also, that two new positions have just been announced:

1. post-doc position for two years: 
https://www.eva.mpg.de/career/positions-available/job/526/Abteilung%20Sprach-%20und%20Kulturevolution/en/?cHash=03f4acc5869838ed71a5164dad0ec849
2. PhD position for three years: 
https://www.eva.mpg.de/career/positions-available/job/525/Abteilung%20Sprach-%20und%20Kulturevolution/en/?cHash=9309eeba5eeff9a839fa84b3fdabdc4c

Please feel free to share this information with your colleagues or via 
channels in which interested people might find this information. 
Deadline for application is February 16, starting date is Apri 1st or a 
bit later.

Best,

Mattis

------------------------------

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End of Lingtyp Digest, Vol 88, Issue 3
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