[Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes
Joseph Brooks
brooks.josephd at gmail.com
Sat Dec 10 01:02:58 UTC 2022
Hi Tom,
I see what you mean with your 2nd question, but other examples do
contradict that assumption. What PFV+IRR does, is express the
unexpectedness of the event wrt its (in)completion. So, these examples all
involve some kind of an unexpected break in the middle of the (perfective)
event. At the same time, this can lend itself to something akin to a
frustrative interpretation, as you suggest. Also, you can get PFV+IRR w/
past reference too, for ex to complain that someone has failed to carry out
some expected action. But again, such uses (of PFV+IRR w/ non-future time
reference), while perfectly good Chini, are infrequent. Peering inside a
pfv event is a rather unusual thing, after all.
As for your other question, there is no easy answer, in part since there is
more in the grammar to take into account.
Most verbs in Chini discourse, are a combination of just two types of
categories: PFV or IPFV and then: R or IRR. In the aspectual stem, both are
obligatory (except one verb class that has a tense distinction, and not
R/IRR). Unless further TAM info is available elsewhere in the clause , all
further semantics = etic material, and so, purely interpretative. However,
there are clear patterns and tendencies for different constructions (as in
the PFV+IRR instances mentioned above).
Since you are interested in temporal reference, the Chini verb doesn't code
for tense (except that one verb class I mentioned). Otherwise, temporal
information isn't encoded in the Chini verb , it's just part of the etic
material. I should mention that aspect aside, there are no temporal
restrictions at all for (realis or) irrealis; there are clear examples of
both R and IRR for the full range of temporal possibilities.
Semantic interpretations aside, as for the language-specific (encoded)
meaning, in Chini, IRR is used to represent the realization (or if you
like, completion) of an event as being outside experience (something some
linguists find descriptively dissatisfying, but not me).
What the aspect contributes to the meaning then depends which aspectual
construction is involved, whether it's an underived PFV or IPFV verb (all
verbs in Chini are intrinsically PFV or IPFV) or whether it's derived via
one of (six, 4 IPFV & 2 PFV) morphemes. The semantic contributions of those
constructions is more than I could do justice to here. Also, different
lexical verbs can exhibit quite a lot of diversity in how they interact
with aspect and R/IRR. So, hard to make any generalizations here, in other
words!
One generalization that does work, is that for PFV+IRR, there is in general
a very wide range of interpretations wrt temporal reference , whereas for
IPFV+IRR, temporal contexts are much more restricted. If we just go with
the most productive & frequent IPFV construction in combo w IRR marking,
the T-A interpretations are limited to ongoing (present) phasal (esp often:
inceptive) or present habitual, eg:
ku miagɨ yucmh'i
ku miagɨ yu-cmh'-i
1sg betel.nut sell.pfv-ipfv-irr
'I'm selling/exchanging betel nut' OR: 'I (habitually) sell betel nut'
Hope something here is helpful. Also side note that everything is very
different under negation.
Blessings,
Joseph
On Thu, Dec 8, 2022 at 6:07 AM <lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 10:39:17 +0000
> From: Tom Koss <Tom.Koss at uantwerpen.be>
> To: Lingtyp list <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Lingtyp Digest, Vol 99, Issue 7
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> Hi Joseph,
>
> many thanks for the input. That irrealis verb forms can refer to both
> future possibilities and (remote) past habituals is something I have
> encountered in quite a few languages outside of Europe, especially in New
> Guinea and South America. So irrealis markers behave like typical
> non-present grams in some languages. That irrealis verb forms, irrespective
> of aspect, can refer to the ongoing present, on the other hand, is
> something new to me.
>
> Do you have any idea what the exact semantics of 'imperfective verb stem +
> irrealis suffix' constructions in Chini might be? Or, put differently, what
> could be the difference between these constructions and other ways of
> referring to the present with imperfective verbs (if there are any)?
>
> As for the one example you mentioned where the irrealis suffix was used on
> a perfective verb with present-time reference ("we're sleeping"), I was
> thinking: is there maybe irrealis marking because one cannot be sleeping in
> the strict sense and engage in a (conscious) conversation at the same time,
> which adds a sense of counterfactuality or frustrativity to the situation?
> Or are there other examples contradicting this assumption?
>
> All best,
> Tom
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of
> Joseph Brooks <brooks.josephd at gmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 8, 2022 3:28 AM
> To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Lingtyp Digest, Vol 99, Issue 7
>
>
> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
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>
> Hi Tom,
> This possibility is found in Chini, a Ramu language of Papua New Guinea.
> I'll just mention a modal category and then irrealis.
>
> The modal suffix (-ru) attaches to the verb, it's used to express
> likelihoods ? things that might or are likely to happen in the future (eg,
> in warnings), or guesses about past events (eg in guesses about causation).
> It isn't ever used in present contexts ("X must be angry/hungry", etc). In
> those cases, other constructions are used.
>
> Some in this discussion addressed perfectivity so here is a twist on that.
> When used to inflect perfective verb stems, irrealis occurs almost
> exclusively in non-present utterances, to express the verbal event and/or
> its realization as being within the realm of the imaginary. So, things like
> past habituals outside the speaker's lived experience, or future
> possibilities and hypotheticals.
>
> Meanwhile for imperfective verb stems, irrealis marking occurs very often
> in present contexts, to express the action or state as ongoing. 'Squat' is
> imperfective in Chini so for ex, squat.ipfv-irr = 'is/are squatting'.
>
> A perfective verb form can be inflected for irrealis in present temporal
> contexts, but exceedingly rarely ? I think I've encountered only about a
> dozen or so such examples. Here the verbal event is expressed as being in
> medias res but in these cases there's more than just semantics going on. A
> fave example is once some guys were drunk and making a lot of noise in the
> middle of the night, and several people screamed out their houses, "We're
> sleeping!" ie anyi angg-i 1PL sleep.pfv-irr
>
> These rare examples seem to arise only when the speaker's attention is
> alerted or seized in some unusual way. Otherwise, the go-to construction
> for expressing actions in medias res, is to derive the perfective verb as
> an imperfective & mark it as irrealis: eg nyi anggu-mh'-i 3pl
> sleep.pfv-ipfv-irr 'they're sleeping'.
>
> Joseph
>
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 7:00 AM <lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: R: Non-present lexemes (Tom Koss)
> 2. Re: R: Non-present lexemes (Christian Lehmann)
> 3. Re: R: Non-present lexemes (Wiemer, Bjoern)
> 4. Re: R: Non-present lexemes (Tom Koss)
> 5. Re: spectrograms in linguistic description and for language
> comparison (Cat Butz)
> 6. Re: spectrograms in linguistic description and for language
> comparison (Lidia Federica Mazzitelli)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2022 10:54:33 +0000
> From: Tom Koss <Tom.Koss at uantwerpen.be<mailto:Tom.Koss at uantwerpen.be>>
> To: Lingtyp list <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes
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> Dear all,
>
> many, many thanks for all the responses! I really appreciate it. I hope
> you forgive me that I cannot respond to every contributor personally.
>
> A few summarizing observations: this phenomenon seems to be much more
> widespread than I would have assumed, especially in Indo-European and
> Uralic languages. Also, non-present semantics seems to be associated mostly
> with adverbs and particles, while verbal paradigms referring to the
> non-present are much rarer, the only examples for the latter being the
> recency/remoteness markers of Piraha, the Macedonian aorist and the
> perfective aspect in Russian.
>
> Within the group of adverbs, I could make out three different types with
> more or less equal frequencies: adverbs indicating a short relative
> distance from the present ('recent past and near future'), adverbs
> indicating a great relative distance from the present ('remote past and
> remote future'), and adverbs indicating an absolute, in most cases
> intermediate distance from the present ('yesterday and tomorrow', or even
> 'day before yesterday and day after tomorrow'). For some adverbs, one of
> the two temporal interpretations (past or future) is more typical or
> considered to be ?the correct one? by prescriptivists.
>
> The fact that any clausal connective encoding some kind of sequentiality
> can, by definition, only refer to the non-present is something I hadn?t
> thought about, so thanks for drawing my attention to it. I maybe should
> have added to my definition that I am mainly looking for non-present
> semantics within simple clauses.
>
> Many thanks again! Please feel free to provide me with further examples in
> case something else comes to your mind.
>
> All best,
> Tom
>
> ________________________________
> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>> on behalf of Raffaele Simone <
> raffaele.simone at uniroma3.it<mailto:raffaele.simone at uniroma3.it>>
> Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2022 5:03 PM
> To: David Gil <gil at shh.mpg.de<mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de>>;
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
> Subject: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes
>
>
> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
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>
> Dear friends,
>
> the Italian adverb ora ?now? means both ?quite recently in the past? and
> ?shortly?.
>
> 1. Ne abbiamo parlato ora
>
> We talked about it an instant ago
>
> 1. Ne parleremo ora
>
> We shall talk about it in a moment
>
> Best,
>
> Raffaele
>
>
>
> ==============
>
> Emeritus Professor, Universit? Roma Tre
>
> Hon C Lund University
>
> Membre de l'Acad?mie Royale de Belgique
>
> Chevalier de l'Ordre des Arts et des Lettres de France
>
> Accademico (corrispondente) della Crusca
>
> Prix de l'Institut de France-Fondation Bonnefous 2022
>
> ===============
>
> Attivit? e pubblicazioni // Activity and publications
> http://uniroma3.academia.edu/RaffaeleSimone<
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>
>
> Da: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>> Per conto di David Gil
> Inviato: venerd? 2 dicembre 2022 20:07
> A: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Oggetto: Re: [Lingtyp] Non-present lexemes
>
>
>
> Dear all,
>
> In English, 'this evening', uttered at around 3 or 4 am, can, with a bit
> of effort, be understood as referring to either the previous evening or the
> following evening, depending on context, but not to the present time.
>
> In Hebrew, a similar but less marginal (ie. much more common) pattern is
> evident with halayla (DEF:night), which, when uttered during daytime, can
> refer to either the preceding night ('last night') or the following night
> ('tonight'), but obviously not to the present.
>
> The generalization seems to be that English this / Hebrew ha= plus
> part-of-day expression refers to the nearest appropriate part of day to the
> time of speech, with no inherent specification of relative (past, present
> or future) time. (With an added complication for English, which, instead
> of #this night, has either last night or tonight for past and future
> respectively.)
>
> David
>
>
>
> --
>
> David Gil
>
>
>
> Senior Scientist (Associate)
>
> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
>
> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
>
> Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
>
>
>
> Email: gil at shh.mpg.de<mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de><mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de<mailto:
> gil at shh.mpg.de>>
>
> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
>
> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302
>
>
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> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2022 12:05:41 +0100
> From: Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de<mailto:
> christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>>
> To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes
> Message-ID: <0d568841-69bb-3b9b-a2e0-cad7a9ad1c33 at Uni-Erfurt.De>
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>
> Dear Tom,
>
> the semantic property you are interested in may be shared by the
> perfective aspect of more languages. Another one is Cabecar (Chibchan).
> Similarly as in Russian (salvo errore), the perfective most of the time
> refers to past events, but reference to future events is possible. It
> seems that such a behavior of an aspect morpheme is not quite the same
> as the semantics of temporal adverbs that have been adduced. These
> latter do refer to points or periods of time, whereas the perfective
> views the event in question in its entirety, including the boundaries of
> its extension in time. This is straightforwardly possible for past
> events, but requires additional interpretive effort for future events.
> What I am saying is that the perfective aspect may not quite meet the
> requirement of your initial quest about "time reference".
>
> Best,
> Christian
> --
>
> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
> Rudolfstr. 4
> 99092 Erfurt
> Deutschland
>
> Tel.: +49/361/2113417
> E-Post: christianw_lehmann at arcor.de<mailto:
> christianw_lehmann at arcor.de>
> Web: https://www.christianlehmann.eu<
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2022 11:29:37 +0000
> From: "Wiemer, Bjoern" <wiemerb at uni-mainz.de<mailto:wiemerb at uni-mainz.de>>
> To: Tom Koss <Tom.Koss at uantwerpen.be<mailto:Tom.Koss at uantwerpen.be>>,
> Lingtyp list
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes
> Message-ID: <0c34d3e109c04545bc2e53ee81bd5a1b at uni-mainz.de<mailto:
> 0c34d3e109c04545bc2e53ee81bd5a1b at uni-mainz.de>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dear Tom,
> thanks for this nice digest. However, on the spot, I'd like to make two
> comments.
>
>
> 1. You can have sequentiality in simple clauses if you just consider
> items like Germ. dann 'then'. Speakers can just use this in reaction to
> some verbal exchange in which it has ben discussed how to act in some
> particular situation. A speaker may then (ditto!) say: Dann la? es uns doch
> so machen. (translating probably as sth. like 'Well, then let us proceed in
> this way'). This might be equivalent to "In diesem Fall / Wenn die Sache so
> ist,...." 'If this is the case... (let us do so and so)', and here dann
> might be argued to be sth. like a discourse connective to link up a verbal
> (re)action with what has been the topic of the verbal exchange. However, it
> is a simple clause. Note that it works not only with directive (hortative)
> speech acts (as above), but also with a (superficially) declarative like
> Dann machen wir es so, literally 'Then we (will) do it this way', but
> implying, of course, an indirect hortative (or even imperative) speech act
> (depending on the "power relations" betw
> een the interlocutors at the given point of discourse).
> 2. I haven't quite understood why you refer to Macedonian aorist (it
> would be same for Bulgarian). This is simply a delimitative aspect for the
> past domain. Can it be used to refer to future events?
>
> And, by the way, why do you mention Russian (probably entire North Slavic)
> perfective present here? Do present tense forms of pfv. stems refer to past
> events? They may do so, indeed, if unlimited and irregular repetition
> (habituals) is what you have in mind. But in this case temporal reference
> seems to be just suspended, the only thing that counts is the boundedness
> of each particular occurrence of the denoted situation type (i.e. the
> lexical meaning of the verb). Is this what you have asked for?
>
> Best,
> Bj?rn.
>
> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>> On Behalf Of Tom Koss
> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2022 11:55 AM
> To: Lingtyp list <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes
>
> Dear all,
>
> many, many thanks for all the responses! I really appreciate it. I hope
> you forgive me that I cannot respond to every contributor personally.
>
> A few summarizing observations: this phenomenon seems to be much more
> widespread than I would have assumed, especially in Indo-European and
> Uralic languages. Also, non-present semantics seems to be associated mostly
> with adverbs and particles, while verbal paradigms referring to the
> non-present are much rarer, the only examples for the latter being the
> recency/remoteness markers of Piraha, the Macedonian aorist and the
> perfective aspect in Russian.
>
> Within the group of adverbs, I could make out three different types with
> more or less equal frequencies: adverbs indicating a short relative
> distance from the present ('recent past and near future'), adverbs
> indicating a great relative distance from the present ('remote past and
> remote future'), and adverbs indicating an absolute, in most cases
> intermediate distance from the present ('yesterday and tomorrow', or even
> 'day before yesterday and day after tomorrow'). For some adverbs, one of
> the two temporal interpretations (past or future) is more typical or
> considered to be 'the correct one' by prescriptivists.
>
> The fact that any clausal connective encoding some kind of sequentiality
> can, by definition, only refer to the non-present is something I hadn't
> thought about, so thanks for drawing my attention to it. I maybe should
> have added to my definition that I am mainly looking for non-present
> semantics within simple clauses.
>
> Many thanks again! Please feel free to provide me with further examples in
> case something else comes to your mind.
>
> All best,
> Tom
>
> ________________________________
> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org><mailto:
> lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>>> on behalf of Raffaele Simone
> <raffaele.simone at uniroma3.it<mailto:raffaele.simone at uniroma3.it><mailto:
> raffaele.simone at uniroma3.it<mailto:raffaele.simone at uniroma3.it>>>
> Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2022 5:03 PM
> To: David Gil <gil at shh.mpg.de<mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de><mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de
> <mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de>>>; lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org><mailto:
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org><mailto:
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >>>
> Subject: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes
>
> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
> the content is safe.
>
>
> Dear friends,
>
> the Italian adverb ora "now" means both "quite recently in the past" and
> "shortly".
>
> 1. Ne abbiamo parlato ora
>
> We talked about it an instant ago
>
> 1. Ne parleremo ora
>
> We shall talk about it in a moment
>
> Best,
>
> Raffaele
>
>
>
> ==============
>
> Emeritus Professor, Universit? Roma Tre
>
> Hon C Lund University
>
> Membre de l'Acad?mie Royale de Belgique
>
> Chevalier de l'Ordre des Arts et des Lettres de France
>
> Accademico (corrispondente) della Crusca
>
> Prix de l'Institut de France-Fondation Bonnefous 2022
>
> ===============
>
> Attivit? e pubblicazioni // Activity and publications
> http://uniroma3.academia.edu/RaffaeleSimone<
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Funiroma3.academia.edu%2FRaffaeleSimone&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=t99TMmfGXDFfYXdI2Apu%2B898Ka%2F5NZGx0Zbn%2FyWz1eg%3D&reserved=0
> ><
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> uniroma3.academia.edu%2FRaffaeleSimone&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%
> 40uantwerpen.be
> %7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=t99TMmfGXDFfYXdI2Apu%2B898Ka%2F5NZGx0Zbn%2FyWz1eg%3D&reserved=0>>
>
>
>
> Da: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org><mailto:
> lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>>> Per conto di David Gil
> Inviato: venerd? 2 dicembre 2022 20:07
> A: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org><mailto:
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >>
> Oggetto: Re: [Lingtyp] Non-present lexemes
>
>
>
> Dear all,
>
> In English, 'this evening', uttered at around 3 or 4 am, can, with a bit
> of effort, be understood as referring to either the previous evening or the
> following evening, depending on context, but not to the present time.
>
> In Hebrew, a similar but less marginal (ie. much more common) pattern is
> evident with halayla (DEF:night), which, when uttered during daytime, can
> refer to either the preceding night ('last night') or the following night
> ('tonight'), but obviously not to the present.
>
> The generalization seems to be that English this / Hebrew ha= plus
> part-of-day expression refers to the nearest appropriate part of day to the
> time of speech, with no inherent specification of relative (past, present
> or future) time. (With an added complication for English, which, instead
> of #this night, has either last night or tonight for past and future
> respectively.)
>
> David
>
>
>
> --
>
> David Gil
>
>
>
> Senior Scientist (Associate)
>
> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
>
> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
>
> Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
>
>
>
> Email: gil at shh.mpg.de<mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de><mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de<mailto:
> gil at shh.mpg.de>>
>
> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
>
> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302
>
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2022 11:31:32 +0000
> From: Tom Koss <Tom.Koss at uantwerpen.be<mailto:Tom.Koss at uantwerpen.be>>
> To: Lingtyp list <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes
> Message-ID:
> <
> AS8PR05MB10112A58CE55A6F10CAC6329D9A1A9 at AS8PR05MB10112.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com
> <mailto:
> AS8PR05MB10112A58CE55A6F10CAC6329D9A1A9 at AS8PR05MB10112.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com
> >>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi Christian,
>
> very true - the perfective aspect does not refer to the non-present in
> itself, its semantics simply clashes with a present interpretation in most
> instances. This is also illustrated by the fact that in some languages
> (e.g., Koiari [Trans-New Guinea]), the perfective can express, or is even
> the default way to express present-time reference on stative verbs. Whether
> an utterance like "s/he knows (right now)" should then actually be
> interpreted as "s/he has understood (in the past)" is yet another question,
> of course..
>
> So indeed, I might need to remove Slavic perfectives/aorists from the list
> of non-present grams. Thanks for pointing that out.
>
> Best,
> Tom
> ________________________________
> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>> on behalf of Christian
> Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de<mailto:
> christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2022 12:05 PM
> To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> <mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes
>
>
> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
> the content is safe.
>
>
> Dear Tom,
>
> the semantic property you are interested in may be shared by the
> perfective aspect of more languages. Another one is Cabecar (Chibchan).
> Similarly as in Russian (salvo errore), the perfective most of the time
> refers to past events, but reference to future events is possible. It seems
> that such a behavior of an aspect morpheme is not quite the same as the
> semantics of temporal adverbs that have been adduced. These latter do refer
> to points or periods of time, whereas the perfective views the event in
> question in its entirety, including the boundaries of its extension in
> time. This is straightforwardly possible for past events, but requires
> additional interpretive effort for future events. What I am saying is that
> the perfective aspect may not quite meet the requirement of your initial
> quest about "time reference".
>
> Best,
> Christian
> --
>
> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
> Rudolfstr. 4
> 99092 Erfurt
> Deutschland
>
> Tel.: +49/361/2113417
> E-Post: christianw_lehmann at arcor.de<mailto:christianw_lehmann at arcor.de
> ><mailto:christianw_lehmann at arcor.de<mailto:christianw_lehmann at arcor.de>>
> Web: https://www.christianlehmann.eu<
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XiuF36WL4PobYA1b7XeFN4OLvlZMxEim9Z6ivCsrl5M%3D&reserved=0
> ><
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2022 12:39:57 +0100
> From: Cat Butz <Cat.Butz at hhu.de<mailto:Cat.Butz at hhu.de>>
> To: Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de<mailto:
> christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>>
> Cc: Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77 at buffalo.edu<mailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu>>,
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] spectrograms in linguistic description and for
> language comparison
> Message-ID: <5317c939951f34d241177b69bc6c6580 at hhu.de<mailto:
> 5317c939951f34d241177b69bc6c6580 at hhu.de>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> Am 2022-12-05 09:48, schrieb Christian Lehmann:
> > I am not sure how many members of this list would wish to continue
> > this discussion.
>
> I, for one, am currently writing a grammar for my dissertation and am
> reading everything in this discussion with great interest. Thanks to
> everyone participating in this discussion for pointing out all those
> things.
>
> Best,
> ---
> Cat Butz (she)
> HHU D?sseldorf, general linguistics
>
> Cat Butz (sie)
> HHU D?sseldorf, allgemeine Sprachwissenschaft
>
>
>
> > For something to count as proof in a science means that it corresponds
> > to a certain pattern of argumentation by the methodological standards
> > on which scientists have agreed. These patterns are different for
> > logical and for empirical sciences. I feel reminded of
> >
> > Kamlah, Wilhelm & Lorenzen, Paul 1967, _Logische Prop?deutik.
> > Vorschule des vern?nftigen Redens._ Mannheim: Bibliographisches
> > Institut (B.I.-Hochschultaschenb?cher).
> >
> > translated as:
> > _Logical Propaedeutic: Pre-school of Reasonable Discourse._ Lanham,
> > Maryland: University Press of America, 1984.
> >
> > It is true that things are more complicated in empirical disciplines
> > because we have indeed to agree upon standards of validity. And to the
> > extent that it is impractical to counter-check everything that a
> > proponent assures his audience of, there is a portion of trust
> > involved in scientific discourse of an empirical discipline.
> >
> > Things work the Kamlah-Lorenzen way if a scientific claim is a simple
> > general statement of the kind 'in German, the definite article
> > precedes (rather than follows) the nominal group'. To prove it,
> > according to established standards of our discipline, it suffices for
> > me to produce a (probatory) example of a certain kind. If you do not
> > accept it, you may either operationalize my claim in such a way that
> > what I produced does not count as an example or to produce a
> > counter-example (of a postnominal definite article).
> >
> > The claim about the affix that you use as an example is more complex
> > since the issue appears to be what the correct analysis of a certain
> > occurrence is. This would have to be broken down into a set of simpler
> > statements in order to be tractable by Kamlah & Lorenzen.
> >
> > Best,
> > Christian
> >
> > Am 04.12.22 um 05:26 schrieb Juergen Bohnemeyer:
> >
> >> Dear Christian ? I stand corrected! Thanks for the link, I think
> >> it?s great that you?ve looked into this issue. I sincerely wish
> >> more people had.
> >>
> >> And I think I agree with the policy you propose. But allow me to
> >> elaborate just a little.
> >>
> >> Now, at the risk of splitting hairs, I?m afraid from where I look
> >> at things, ?probatory example? is an oxymoron.
> >>
> >> There?s nothing an example could prove. In fact, there?s no such
> >> thing as proof in science. Proof only exists in math, including in
> >> logic.
> >>
> >> The closest equivalent to proof in science is hypothesis testing.
> >>
> >> Can an example ever be said to serve as a test of a hypothesis?
> >>
> >> Let?s say the author is aiming to adjudicate between two competing
> >> analyses. One predicts that a certain affix will appear in a certain
> >> environment, while the competing analysis predicts that it won?t.
> >> Then the author produces an example that instantiates the relevant
> >> context, and features or doesn?t feature the affix, thereby
> >> confirming one prediction or the other.
> >>
> >> Under such conditions, the example in question can assume a role
> >> similar to that of hypothesis testing in experimental science.
> >>
> >> But then immediately validity concerns analogous to those in
> >> experimentation will present themselves. Such as:
> >>
> >> * Internal validity: Was the example correctly analyzed and coded?
> >> Is the occurrence of the affix in question actually conditioned
> >> solely by the factors the competing hypotheses assume, or could it
> >> also be conditioned by other factors?
> >> * External validity: Is the example reproducible with other
> >> members of the speech community? Assuming there are any left!
> >> * Ecological validity: Does the example actually reflect the
> >> everyday linguistic behavior of speakers of the language
> >> (/doculect)? Assuming there still is everyday use by the members of
> >> the community!
> >>
> >> As I see it, the recommendations your webpage makes for documenting
> >> the conditions under which a ?probatory? example was recorded go
> >> some way toward addressing concerns with external and ecological
> >> validity.
> >>
> >> But the biggest challenge for addressing such concerns is in my view
> >> that we haven?t developed standards for assessing and reporting
> >> the empirical basis for our descriptions ? the speakers we collect
> >> the data from, and how well they/it represent(s) the speech
> >> community, or which speech community it represents.
> >>
> >> Best -- Juergen
> >>
> >> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
> >> Professor, Department of Linguistics
> >> University at Buffalo
> >>
> >> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
> >> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
> >> Phone: (716) 645 0127
> >> Fax: (716) 645 3825
> >> Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu<mailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu>
> >> Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/<
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.acsu.buffalo.edu%2F~jb77%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=xPZme0qAi6%2Bpu%2FzRMF3b5sKeUwnOFEZCMz6MLNUudiQ%3D&reserved=0>
> [1]
> >>
> >> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID
> >> 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)
> >>
> >> There?s A Crack In Everything - That?s How The Light Gets In
> >> (Leonard Cohen)
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>> on behalf
> >> of Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de<mailto:
> christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>>
> >> Date: Friday, December 2, 2022 at 10:18 AM
> >> To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> >> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
> >> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] spectrograms in linguistic description and
> >> for language comparison
> >>
> >> Dear J?rgen,
> >>
> >> to mitigate a bit your pessimist opinion of the methodological
> >> situation of our discipline, let me mention, as a contribution to
> >> the discussion you are requiring, my web page
> >>
> >
> https://www.christianlehmann.eu/ling/ling_meth/ling_description/representations/?open=example.inc
> <
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=fgL7dn9xXeRHspW8cQ5ktQC%2FqwJMRS5YusuHL9aOWjQ%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >> [2]
> >> which advocates a distinction between
> >>
> >> * a probatory example (which is data used as scientific evidence)
> >> * and an illustrative example (or pedagogical example, which is
> >> only meant to render a descriptive statement more concrete and,
> >> thus, to help understanding).
> >>
> >> Methodological standards for these two kinds of examples are
> >> completely different. On #1, I may recommend:
> >>
> >> Lehmann, Christian 2004, ?Data in linguistics.? _The Linguistic
> >> Review_ 21(3/4):275-310. [3]
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Christian
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
> >> Rudolfstr. 4
> >> 99092 Erfurt
> >> Deutschland
> >>
> >> Tel.:
> >>
> >> +49/361/2113417
> >>
> >> E-Post:
> >>
> >> christianw_lehmann at arcor.de<mailto:christianw_lehmann at arcor.de>
> >>
> >> Web:
> >>
> >> https://www.christianlehmann.eu<
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XiuF36WL4PobYA1b7XeFN4OLvlZMxEim9Z6ivCsrl5M%3D&reserved=0>
> [4]
> >
> > --
> > Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
> > Rudolfstr. 4
> > 99092 Erfurt
> > Deutschland
> >
> > Tel.:
> > +49/361/2113417
> >
> > E-Post:
> > christianw_lehmann at arcor.de<mailto:
> christianw_lehmann at arcor.de>
> >
> > Web:
> > https://www.christianlehmann.eu<
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XiuF36WL4PobYA1b7XeFN4OLvlZMxEim9Z6ivCsrl5M%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Links:
> > ------
> > [1] http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/<
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.acsu.buffalo.edu%2F~jb77%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=xPZme0qAi6%2Bpu%2FzRMF3b5sKeUwnOFEZCMz6MLNUudiQ%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > [2]
> >
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VXi3oaBXPpkSUjObO9z%2Bg0ZPyvILV%2FkhMGG441T56L8%3D&reserved=0
> <
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=fgL7dn9xXeRHspW8cQ5ktQC%2FqwJMRS5YusuHL9aOWjQ%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > [3]
> >
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F249931781_Data_in_linguistics&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=UI%2BLyj4NP2pzzyidgM3Z5nh72VJP%2FHCQl1UjmMWsRRI%3D&reserved=0
> <
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F249931781_Data_in_linguistics&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zICJMi%2F3z39T4fE7gcyMf1LFw2PeJoDbyZUzG6t9gyY%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > [4]
> >
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=HAeLu5NMoRkuDSO7t0wiYIxRVXp7%2FCh1yAPK8ixnqR0%3D&reserved=0
> <
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XiuF36WL4PobYA1b7XeFN4OLvlZMxEim9Z6ivCsrl5M%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Lingtyp mailing list
> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> > https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp<
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> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2022 22:50:02 +1100
> From: Lidia Federica Mazzitelli <lfmazzitelli at gmail.com<mailto:
> lfmazzitelli at gmail.com>>
> To: Cat Butz <Cat.Butz at hhu.de<mailto:Cat.Butz at hhu.de>>
> Cc: Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de<mailto:
> christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>>,
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] spectrograms in linguistic description and for
> language comparison
> Message-ID:
> <
> CABZ3858K24jfoOnE03UJjb7L3+28npJM43+Wh2i7mRtbQ3Hxzg at mail.gmail.com<mailto:
> CABZ3858K24jfoOnE03UJjb7L3%2B28npJM43%2BWh2i7mRtbQ3Hxzg at mail.gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I also think that the discussion is really interesting, and have read (and
> wish to read more) everything with great interest!
> I am also working on the grammar of a previously undescribed and relatively
> endangered language, and the selection of examples from the corpus, as well
> as the balancing of elicitation Vs natural discourse data (especially in
> terms of negative evidence), is not as straightforward as I may have
> thought before.
> Thank you!
>
> Best, Lidia
>
> Il mer 7 dic 2022, 22:39 Cat Butz <Cat.Butz at hhu.de<mailto:Cat.Butz at hhu.de>>
> ha scritto:
>
> > Am 2022-12-05 09:48, schrieb Christian Lehmann:
> > > I am not sure how many members of this list would wish to continue
> > > this discussion.
> >
> > I, for one, am currently writing a grammar for my dissertation and am
> > reading everything in this discussion with great interest. Thanks to
> > everyone participating in this discussion for pointing out all those
> > things.
> >
> > Best,
> > ---
> > Cat Butz (she)
> > HHU D?sseldorf, general linguistics
> >
> > Cat Butz (sie)
> > HHU D?sseldorf, allgemeine Sprachwissenschaft
> >
> >
> >
> > > For something to count as proof in a science means that it corresponds
> > > to a certain pattern of argumentation by the methodological standards
> > > on which scientists have agreed. These patterns are different for
> > > logical and for empirical sciences. I feel reminded of
> > >
> > > Kamlah, Wilhelm & Lorenzen, Paul 1967, _Logische Prop?deutik.
> > > Vorschule des vern?nftigen Redens._ Mannheim: Bibliographisches
> > > Institut (B.I.-Hochschultaschenb?cher).
> > >
> > > translated as:
> > > _Logical Propaedeutic: Pre-school of Reasonable Discourse._ Lanham,
> > > Maryland: University Press of America, 1984.
> > >
> > > It is true that things are more complicated in empirical disciplines
> > > because we have indeed to agree upon standards of validity. And to the
> > > extent that it is impractical to counter-check everything that a
> > > proponent assures his audience of, there is a portion of trust
> > > involved in scientific discourse of an empirical discipline.
> > >
> > > Things work the Kamlah-Lorenzen way if a scientific claim is a simple
> > > general statement of the kind 'in German, the definite article
> > > precedes (rather than follows) the nominal group'. To prove it,
> > > according to established standards of our discipline, it suffices for
> > > me to produce a (probatory) example of a certain kind. If you do not
> > > accept it, you may either operationalize my claim in such a way that
> > > what I produced does not count as an example or to produce a
> > > counter-example (of a postnominal definite article).
> > >
> > > The claim about the affix that you use as an example is more complex
> > > since the issue appears to be what the correct analysis of a certain
> > > occurrence is. This would have to be broken down into a set of simpler
> > > statements in order to be tractable by Kamlah & Lorenzen.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Christian
> > >
> > > Am 04.12.22 um 05:26 schrieb Juergen Bohnemeyer:
> > >
> > >> Dear Christian ? I stand corrected! Thanks for the link, I think
> > >> it?s great that you?ve looked into this issue. I sincerely wish
> > >> more people had.
> > >>
> > >> And I think I agree with the policy you propose. But allow me to
> > >> elaborate just a little.
> > >>
> > >> Now, at the risk of splitting hairs, I?m afraid from where I look
> > >> at things, ?probatory example? is an oxymoron.
> > >>
> > >> There?s nothing an example could prove. In fact, there?s no such
> > >> thing as proof in science. Proof only exists in math, including in
> > >> logic.
> > >>
> > >> The closest equivalent to proof in science is hypothesis testing.
> > >>
> > >> Can an example ever be said to serve as a test of a hypothesis?
> > >>
> > >> Let?s say the author is aiming to adjudicate between two competing
> > >> analyses. One predicts that a certain affix will appear in a certain
> > >> environment, while the competing analysis predicts that it won?t.
> > >> Then the author produces an example that instantiates the relevant
> > >> context, and features or doesn?t feature the affix, thereby
> > >> confirming one prediction or the other.
> > >>
> > >> Under such conditions, the example in question can assume a role
> > >> similar to that of hypothesis testing in experimental science.
> > >>
> > >> But then immediately validity concerns analogous to those in
> > >> experimentation will present themselves. Such as:
> > >>
> > >> * Internal validity: Was the example correctly analyzed and coded?
> > >> Is the occurrence of the affix in question actually conditioned
> > >> solely by the factors the competing hypotheses assume, or could it
> > >> also be conditioned by other factors?
> > >> * External validity: Is the example reproducible with other
> > >> members of the speech community? Assuming there are any left!
> > >> * Ecological validity: Does the example actually reflect the
> > >> everyday linguistic behavior of speakers of the language
> > >> (/doculect)? Assuming there still is everyday use by the members of
> > >> the community!
> > >>
> > >> As I see it, the recommendations your webpage makes for documenting
> > >> the conditions under which a ?probatory? example was recorded go
> > >> some way toward addressing concerns with external and ecological
> > >> validity.
> > >>
> > >> But the biggest challenge for addressing such concerns is in my view
> > >> that we haven?t developed standards for assessing and reporting
> > >> the empirical basis for our descriptions ? the speakers we collect
> > >> the data from, and how well they/it represent(s) the speech
> > >> community, or which speech community it represents.
> > >>
> > >> Best -- Juergen
> > >>
> > >> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
> > >> Professor, Department of Linguistics
> > >> University at Buffalo
> > >>
> > >> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
> > >> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
> > >> Phone: (716) 645 0127
> > >> Fax: (716) 645 3825
> > >> Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu<mailto:jb77 at buffalo.edu>
> > >> Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/<
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.acsu.buffalo.edu%2F~jb77%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=xPZme0qAi6%2Bpu%2FzRMF3b5sKeUwnOFEZCMz6MLNUudiQ%3D&reserved=0>
> [1]
> > >>
> > >> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID
> > >> 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)
> > >>
> > >> There?s A Crack In Everything - That?s How The Light Gets In
> > >> (Leonard Cohen)
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >>
> > >> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>> on behalf
> > >> of Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de<mailto:
> christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>>
> > >> Date: Friday, December 2, 2022 at 10:18 AM
> > >> To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> > >> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
> > >> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] spectrograms in linguistic description and
> > >> for language comparison
> > >>
> > >> Dear J?rgen,
> > >>
> > >> to mitigate a bit your pessimist opinion of the methodological
> > >> situation of our discipline, let me mention, as a contribution to
> > >> the discussion you are requiring, my web page
> > >>
> > >
> >
> https://www.christianlehmann.eu/ling/ling_meth/ling_description/representations/?open=example.inc
> <
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=fgL7dn9xXeRHspW8cQ5ktQC%2FqwJMRS5YusuHL9aOWjQ%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > >> [2]
> > >> which advocates a distinction between
> > >>
> > >> * a probatory example (which is data used as scientific evidence)
> > >> * and an illustrative example (or pedagogical example, which is
> > >> only meant to render a descriptive statement more concrete and,
> > >> thus, to help understanding).
> > >>
> > >> Methodological standards for these two kinds of examples are
> > >> completely different. On #1, I may recommend:
> > >>
> > >> Lehmann, Christian 2004, ?Data in linguistics.? _The Linguistic
> > >> Review_ 21(3/4):275-310. [3]
> > >>
> > >> Best,
> > >> Christian
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >>
> > >> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
> > >> Rudolfstr. 4
> > >> 99092 Erfurt
> > >> Deutschland
> > >>
> > >> Tel.:
> > >>
> > >> +49/361/2113417
> > >>
> > >> E-Post:
> > >>
> > >> christianw_lehmann at arcor.de<mailto:christianw_lehmann at arcor.de>
> > >>
> > >> Web:
> > >>
> > >> https://www.christianlehmann.eu<
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XiuF36WL4PobYA1b7XeFN4OLvlZMxEim9Z6ivCsrl5M%3D&reserved=0>
> [4]
> > >
> > > --
> > > Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
> > > Rudolfstr. 4
> > > 99092 Erfurt
> > > Deutschland
> > >
> > > Tel.:
> > > +49/361/2113417
> > >
> > > E-Post:
> > > christianw_lehmann at arcor.de<mailto:
> christianw_lehmann at arcor.de>
> > >
> > > Web:
> > > https://www.christianlehmann.eu<
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633862850884%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=XiuF36WL4PobYA1b7XeFN4OLvlZMxEim9Z6ivCsrl5M%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Links:
> > > ------
> > > [1] http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/<
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.acsu.buffalo.edu%2F~jb77%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633863007159%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=eEb0IMT4Lq8fkhDn8w6KYNp4s0F%2BHmEJor8UcEi8Okk%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > > [2]
> > >
> >
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VXi3oaBXPpkSUjObO9z%2Bg0ZPyvILV%2FkhMGG441T56L8%3D&reserved=0
> <
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633863007159%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=X00I%2B5F5Tv%2F%2BFNBx6IQdi7t4YRcFFG3ssQDYSA29BCU%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > > [3]
> > >
> >
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F249931781_Data_in_linguistics&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=UI%2BLyj4NP2pzzyidgM3Z5nh72VJP%2FHCQl1UjmMWsRRI%3D&reserved=0
> <
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F249931781_Data_in_linguistics&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C0ef91a8c0cc34c0fcddb08dad8c40f70%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060633863007159%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=k4j4gyY1DNEOpF%2FHt%2Bpt6OFaJkQS1ZEJ4aZyELQQ%2BxI%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > > [4]
> > >
> >
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=HAeLu5NMoRkuDSO7t0wiYIxRVXp7%2FCh1yAPK8ixnqR0%3D&reserved=0
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> >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 12:07:09 +0100
> From: Pier Marco Bertinetto <piermarco.bertinetto at sns.it>
> To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Lingtyp Digest, Vol 99, Issue 7
> Message-ID:
> <CABoVV59MeTehDnvZLEF-9FiFHtP0F9g=vYTE1qi=
> KF+BRYG1sw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Just a question of method:
> Why should a mail referring to a discussion on
> "non-present lexemes"
> have
> "Lyngtyp Digest, Vol 99, Issue 7"
> as subject?
> It makes things difficult for anybody willing to find, later on, all emails
> of this exchange.
> Best
> Pier Marco
>
>
>
> Il giorno gio 8 dic 2022 alle ore 03:29 Joseph Brooks <
> brooks.josephd at gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
> > Hi Tom,
> > This possibility is found in Chini, a Ramu language of Papua New Guinea.
> > I'll just mention a modal category and then irrealis.
> >
> > The modal suffix (-ru) attaches to the verb, it's used to express
> > likelihoods ? things that might or are likely to happen in the future
> (eg,
> > in warnings), or guesses about past events (eg in guesses about
> causation).
> > It isn't ever used in present contexts ("X must be angry/hungry", etc).
> In
> > those cases, other constructions are used.
> >
> > Some in this discussion addressed perfectivity so here is a twist on
> that.
> > When used to inflect perfective verb stems, irrealis occurs almost
> > exclusively in non-present utterances, to express the verbal event and/or
> > its realization as being within the realm of the imaginary. So, things
> like
> > past habituals outside the speaker's lived experience, or future
> > possibilities and hypotheticals.
> >
> > Meanwhile for imperfective verb stems, irrealis marking occurs very often
> > in present contexts, to express the action or state as ongoing. 'Squat'
> is
> > imperfective in Chini so for ex, squat.ipfv-irr = 'is/are squatting'.
> >
> > A perfective verb form can be inflected for irrealis in present temporal
> > contexts, but exceedingly rarely ? I think I've encountered only about a
> > dozen or so such examples. Here the verbal event is expressed as being in
> > medias res but in these cases there's more than just semantics going on.
> A
> > fave example is once some guys were drunk and making a lot of noise in
> the
> > middle of the night, and several people screamed out their houses, "We're
> > sleeping!" ie anyi angg-i 1PL sleep.pfv-irr
> >
> > These rare examples seem to arise only when the speaker's attention is
> > alerted or seized in some unusual way. Otherwise, the go-to construction
> > for expressing actions in medias res, is to derive the perfective verb as
> > an imperfective & mark it as irrealis: eg nyi anggu-mh'-i 3pl
> > sleep.pfv-ipfv-irr 'they're sleeping'.
> >
> > Joseph
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 7:00 AM <
> lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Send Lingtyp mailing list submissions to
> >> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >>
> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >>
> >> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >> lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >>
> >> You can reach the person managing the list at
> >> lingtyp-owner at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >>
> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> >> than "Re: Contents of Lingtyp digest..."
> >>
> >>
> >> Today's Topics:
> >>
> >> 1. Re: R: Non-present lexemes (Tom Koss)
> >> 2. Re: R: Non-present lexemes (Christian Lehmann)
> >> 3. Re: R: Non-present lexemes (Wiemer, Bjoern)
> >> 4. Re: R: Non-present lexemes (Tom Koss)
> >> 5. Re: spectrograms in linguistic description and for language
> >> comparison (Cat Butz)
> >> 6. Re: spectrograms in linguistic description and for language
> >> comparison (Lidia Federica Mazzitelli)
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 1
> >> Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2022 10:54:33 +0000
> >> From: Tom Koss <Tom.Koss at uantwerpen.be>
> >> To: Lingtyp list <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes
> >> Message-ID:
> >> <
> >>
> AS8PR05MB10112242C03396C8CD6827DD49A1A9 at AS8PR05MB10112.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com
> >> >
> >>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> >>
> >> Dear all,
> >>
> >> many, many thanks for all the responses! I really appreciate it. I hope
> >> you forgive me that I cannot respond to every contributor personally.
> >>
> >> A few summarizing observations: this phenomenon seems to be much more
> >> widespread than I would have assumed, especially in Indo-European and
> >> Uralic languages. Also, non-present semantics seems to be associated
> mostly
> >> with adverbs and particles, while verbal paradigms referring to the
> >> non-present are much rarer, the only examples for the latter being the
> >> recency/remoteness markers of Piraha, the Macedonian aorist and the
> >> perfective aspect in Russian.
> >>
> >> Within the group of adverbs, I could make out three different types with
> >> more or less equal frequencies: adverbs indicating a short relative
> >> distance from the present ('recent past and near future'), adverbs
> >> indicating a great relative distance from the present ('remote past and
> >> remote future'), and adverbs indicating an absolute, in most cases
> >> intermediate distance from the present ('yesterday and tomorrow', or
> even
> >> 'day before yesterday and day after tomorrow'). For some adverbs, one of
> >> the two temporal interpretations (past or future) is more typical or
> >> considered to be ?the correct one? by prescriptivists.
> >>
> >> The fact that any clausal connective encoding some kind of sequentiality
> >> can, by definition, only refer to the non-present is something I hadn?t
> >> thought about, so thanks for drawing my attention to it. I maybe should
> >> have added to my definition that I am mainly looking for non-present
> >> semantics within simple clauses.
> >>
> >> Many thanks again! Please feel free to provide me with further examples
> >> in case something else comes to your mind.
> >>
> >> All best,
> >> Tom
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of
> >> Raffaele Simone <raffaele.simone at uniroma3.it>
> >> Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2022 5:03 PM
> >> To: David Gil <gil at shh.mpg.de>; lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <
> >> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> >> Subject: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes
> >>
> >>
> >> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> >> click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
> >> the content is safe.
> >>
> >>
> >> Dear friends,
> >>
> >> the Italian adverb ora ?now? means both ?quite recently in the past? and
> >> ?shortly?.
> >>
> >> 1. Ne abbiamo parlato ora
> >>
> >> We talked about it an instant ago
> >>
> >> 1. Ne parleremo ora
> >>
> >> We shall talk about it in a moment
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Raffaele
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ==============
> >>
> >> Emeritus Professor, Universit? Roma Tre
> >>
> >> Hon C Lund University
> >>
> >> Membre de l'Acad?mie Royale de Belgique
> >>
> >> Chevalier de l'Ordre des Arts et des Lettres de France
> >>
> >> Accademico (corrispondente) della Crusca
> >>
> >> Prix de l'Institut de France-Fondation Bonnefous 2022
> >>
> >> ===============
> >>
> >> Attivit? e pubblicazioni // Activity and publications
> >> http://uniroma3.academia.edu/RaffaeleSimone<
> >>
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Funiroma3.academia.edu%2FRaffaeleSimone&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7Cb429efa4eff2415035e208dad696db03%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638058242037736669%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=NEVBVJ0AmpFZjueZOuUMJXTEklGNVSOyEyVOc8Rjjgg%3D&reserved=0
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Da: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> Per conto di
> >> David Gil
> >> Inviato: venerd? 2 dicembre 2022 20:07
> >> A: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >> Oggetto: Re: [Lingtyp] Non-present lexemes
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Dear all,
> >>
> >> In English, 'this evening', uttered at around 3 or 4 am, can, with a bit
> >> of effort, be understood as referring to either the previous evening or
> the
> >> following evening, depending on context, but not to the present time.
> >>
> >> In Hebrew, a similar but less marginal (ie. much more common) pattern is
> >> evident with halayla (DEF:night), which, when uttered during daytime,
> can
> >> refer to either the preceding night ('last night') or the following
> night
> >> ('tonight'), but obviously not to the present.
> >>
> >> The generalization seems to be that English this / Hebrew ha= plus
> >> part-of-day expression refers to the nearest appropriate part of day to
> the
> >> time of speech, with no inherent specification of relative (past,
> present
> >> or future) time. (With an added complication for English, which,
> instead
> >> of #this night, has either last night or tonight for past and future
> >> respectively.)
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> David Gil
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Senior Scientist (Associate)
> >>
> >> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
> >>
> >> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
> >>
> >> Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Email: gil at shh.mpg.de<mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de>
> >>
> >> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
> >>
> >> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302
> >>
> >>
> >> -------------- next part --------------
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> >>
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> >> >
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 2
> >> Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2022 12:05:41 +0100
> >> From: Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>
> >> To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes
> >> Message-ID: <0d568841-69bb-3b9b-a2e0-cad7a9ad1c33 at Uni-Erfurt.De>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed"
> >>
> >> Dear Tom,
> >>
> >> the semantic property you are interested in may be shared by the
> >> perfective aspect of more languages. Another one is Cabecar (Chibchan).
> >> Similarly as in Russian (salvo errore), the perfective most of the time
> >> refers to past events, but reference to future events is possible. It
> >> seems that such a behavior of an aspect morpheme is not quite the same
> >> as the semantics of temporal adverbs that have been adduced. These
> >> latter do refer to points or periods of time, whereas the perfective
> >> views the event in question in its entirety, including the boundaries of
> >> its extension in time. This is straightforwardly possible for past
> >> events, but requires additional interpretive effort for future events.
> >> What I am saying is that the perfective aspect may not quite meet the
> >> requirement of your initial quest about "time reference".
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Christian
> >> --
> >>
> >> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
> >> Rudolfstr. 4
> >> 99092 Erfurt
> >> Deutschland
> >>
> >> Tel.: +49/361/2113417
> >> E-Post: christianw_lehmann at arcor.de
> >> Web: https://www.christianlehmann.eu
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> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 3
> >> Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2022 11:29:37 +0000
> >> From: "Wiemer, Bjoern" <wiemerb at uni-mainz.de>
> >> To: Tom Koss <Tom.Koss at uantwerpen.be>, Lingtyp list
> >> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes
> >> Message-ID: <0c34d3e109c04545bc2e53ee81bd5a1b at uni-mainz.de>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >>
> >> Dear Tom,
> >> thanks for this nice digest. However, on the spot, I'd like to make two
> >> comments.
> >>
> >>
> >> 1. You can have sequentiality in simple clauses if you just consider
> >> items like Germ. dann 'then'. Speakers can just use this in reaction to
> >> some verbal exchange in which it has ben discussed how to act in some
> >> particular situation. A speaker may then (ditto!) say: Dann la? es uns
> doch
> >> so machen. (translating probably as sth. like 'Well, then let us
> proceed in
> >> this way'). This might be equivalent to "In diesem Fall / Wenn die
> Sache so
> >> ist,...." 'If this is the case... (let us do so and so)', and here dann
> >> might be argued to be sth. like a discourse connective to link up a
> verbal
> >> (re)action with what has been the topic of the verbal exchange.
> However, it
> >> is a simple clause. Note that it works not only with directive
> (hortative)
> >> speech acts (as above), but also with a (superficially) declarative like
> >> Dann machen wir es so, literally 'Then we (will) do it this way', but
> >> implying, of course, an indirect hortative (or even imperative) speech
> act
> >> (depending on the "power relations" betw
> >> een the interlocutors at the given point of discourse).
> >> 2. I haven't quite understood why you refer to Macedonian aorist (it
> >> would be same for Bulgarian). This is simply a delimitative aspect for
> the
> >> past domain. Can it be used to refer to future events?
> >>
> >> And, by the way, why do you mention Russian (probably entire North
> >> Slavic) perfective present here? Do present tense forms of pfv. stems
> refer
> >> to past events? They may do so, indeed, if unlimited and irregular
> >> repetition (habituals) is what you have in mind. But in this case
> temporal
> >> reference seems to be just suspended, the only thing that counts is the
> >> boundedness of each particular occurrence of the denoted situation type
> >> (i.e. the lexical meaning of the verb). Is this what you have asked for?
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Bj?rn.
> >>
> >> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> On Behalf Of
> >> Tom Koss
> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2022 11:55 AM
> >> To: Lingtyp list <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes
> >>
> >> Dear all,
> >>
> >> many, many thanks for all the responses! I really appreciate it. I hope
> >> you forgive me that I cannot respond to every contributor personally.
> >>
> >> A few summarizing observations: this phenomenon seems to be much more
> >> widespread than I would have assumed, especially in Indo-European and
> >> Uralic languages. Also, non-present semantics seems to be associated
> mostly
> >> with adverbs and particles, while verbal paradigms referring to the
> >> non-present are much rarer, the only examples for the latter being the
> >> recency/remoteness markers of Piraha, the Macedonian aorist and the
> >> perfective aspect in Russian.
> >>
> >> Within the group of adverbs, I could make out three different types with
> >> more or less equal frequencies: adverbs indicating a short relative
> >> distance from the present ('recent past and near future'), adverbs
> >> indicating a great relative distance from the present ('remote past and
> >> remote future'), and adverbs indicating an absolute, in most cases
> >> intermediate distance from the present ('yesterday and tomorrow', or
> even
> >> 'day before yesterday and day after tomorrow'). For some adverbs, one of
> >> the two temporal interpretations (past or future) is more typical or
> >> considered to be 'the correct one' by prescriptivists.
> >>
> >> The fact that any clausal connective encoding some kind of sequentiality
> >> can, by definition, only refer to the non-present is something I hadn't
> >> thought about, so thanks for drawing my attention to it. I maybe should
> >> have added to my definition that I am mainly looking for non-present
> >> semantics within simple clauses.
> >>
> >> Many thanks again! Please feel free to provide me with further examples
> >> in case something else comes to your mind.
> >>
> >> All best,
> >> Tom
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> >> lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>> on behalf of Raffaele
> Simone
> >> <raffaele.simone at uniroma3.it<mailto:raffaele.simone at uniroma3.it>>
> >> Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2022 5:03 PM
> >> To: David Gil <gil at shh.mpg.de<mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de>>;
> >> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> >> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >> <mailto:lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>>
> >> Subject: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes
> >>
> >> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> >> click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
> >> the content is safe.
> >>
> >>
> >> Dear friends,
> >>
> >> the Italian adverb ora "now" means both "quite recently in the past" and
> >> "shortly".
> >>
> >> 1. Ne abbiamo parlato ora
> >>
> >> We talked about it an instant ago
> >>
> >> 1. Ne parleremo ora
> >>
> >> We shall talk about it in a moment
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Raffaele
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ==============
> >>
> >> Emeritus Professor, Universit? Roma Tre
> >>
> >> Hon C Lund University
> >>
> >> Membre de l'Acad?mie Royale de Belgique
> >>
> >> Chevalier de l'Ordre des Arts et des Lettres de France
> >>
> >> Accademico (corrispondente) della Crusca
> >>
> >> Prix de l'Institut de France-Fondation Bonnefous 2022
> >>
> >> ===============
> >>
> >> Attivit? e pubblicazioni // Activity and publications
> >> http://uniroma3.academia.edu/RaffaeleSimone<
> >>
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Funiroma3.academia.edu%2FRaffaeleSimone&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7Cb429efa4eff2415035e208dad696db03%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638058242037736669%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=NEVBVJ0AmpFZjueZOuUMJXTEklGNVSOyEyVOc8Rjjgg%3D&reserved=0
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Da: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> >> lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>> Per conto di David Gil
> >> Inviato: venerd? 2 dicembre 2022 20:07
> >> A: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org<mailto:
> >> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> >> Oggetto: Re: [Lingtyp] Non-present lexemes
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Dear all,
> >>
> >> In English, 'this evening', uttered at around 3 or 4 am, can, with a bit
> >> of effort, be understood as referring to either the previous evening or
> the
> >> following evening, depending on context, but not to the present time.
> >>
> >> In Hebrew, a similar but less marginal (ie. much more common) pattern is
> >> evident with halayla (DEF:night), which, when uttered during daytime,
> can
> >> refer to either the preceding night ('last night') or the following
> night
> >> ('tonight'), but obviously not to the present.
> >>
> >> The generalization seems to be that English this / Hebrew ha= plus
> >> part-of-day expression refers to the nearest appropriate part of day to
> the
> >> time of speech, with no inherent specification of relative (past,
> present
> >> or future) time. (With an added complication for English, which,
> instead
> >> of #this night, has either last night or tonight for past and future
> >> respectively.)
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> David Gil
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Senior Scientist (Associate)
> >>
> >> Department of Linguistic and Cultural Evolution
> >>
> >> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
> >>
> >> Deutscher Platz 6, Leipzig, 04103, Germany
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Email: gil at shh.mpg.de<mailto:gil at shh.mpg.de>
> >>
> >> Mobile Phone (Israel): +972-526117713
> >>
> >> Mobile Phone (Indonesia): +62-082113720302
> >>
> >>
> >> -------------- next part --------------
> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >> URL: <
> >>
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20221207/98abb0e7/attachment-0001.htm
> >> >
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 4
> >> Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2022 11:31:32 +0000
> >> From: Tom Koss <Tom.Koss at uantwerpen.be>
> >> To: Lingtyp list <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes
> >> Message-ID:
> >> <
> >>
> AS8PR05MB10112A58CE55A6F10CAC6329D9A1A9 at AS8PR05MB10112.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com
> >> >
> >>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >>
> >> Hi Christian,
> >>
> >> very true - the perfective aspect does not refer to the non-present in
> >> itself, its semantics simply clashes with a present interpretation in
> most
> >> instances. This is also illustrated by the fact that in some languages
> >> (e.g., Koiari [Trans-New Guinea]), the perfective can express, or is
> even
> >> the default way to express present-time reference on stative verbs.
> Whether
> >> an utterance like "s/he knows (right now)" should then actually be
> >> interpreted as "s/he has understood (in the past)" is yet another
> question,
> >> of course..
> >>
> >> So indeed, I might need to remove Slavic perfectives/aorists from the
> >> list of non-present grams. Thanks for pointing that out.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Tom
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of
> >> Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2022 12:05 PM
> >> To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] R: Non-present lexemes
> >>
> >>
> >> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> >> click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
> >> the content is safe.
> >>
> >>
> >> Dear Tom,
> >>
> >> the semantic property you are interested in may be shared by the
> >> perfective aspect of more languages. Another one is Cabecar (Chibchan).
> >> Similarly as in Russian (salvo errore), the perfective most of the time
> >> refers to past events, but reference to future events is possible. It
> seems
> >> that such a behavior of an aspect morpheme is not quite the same as the
> >> semantics of temporal adverbs that have been adduced. These latter do
> refer
> >> to points or periods of time, whereas the perfective views the event in
> >> question in its entirety, including the boundaries of its extension in
> >> time. This is straightforwardly possible for past events, but requires
> >> additional interpretive effort for future events. What I am saying is
> that
> >> the perfective aspect may not quite meet the requirement of your initial
> >> quest about "time reference".
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Christian
> >> --
> >>
> >> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
> >> Rudolfstr. 4
> >> 99092 Erfurt
> >> Deutschland
> >>
> >> Tel.: +49/361/2113417
> >> E-Post: christianw_lehmann at arcor.de<mailto:christianw_lehmann at arcor.de>
> >> Web: https://www.christianlehmann.eu<
> >>
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ctom.koss%40uantwerpen.be%7C689ad1c91ced4fd65d7708dad843084e%7C792e08fb2d544a8eaf72202548136ef6%7C0%7C0%7C638060079807056608%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ZCa8euAbX%2BSnVaD2B36PSjPUIs409iRUP%2BRTu57b73Q%3D&reserved=0
> >> >
> >> -------------- next part --------------
> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> >> URL: <
> >>
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20221207/2dea77c8/attachment-0001.htm
> >> >
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 5
> >> Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2022 12:39:57 +0100
> >> From: Cat Butz <Cat.Butz at hhu.de>
> >> To: Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>
> >> Cc: Juergen Bohnemeyer <jb77 at buffalo.edu>,
> >> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] spectrograms in linguistic description and for
> >> language comparison
> >> Message-ID: <5317c939951f34d241177b69bc6c6580 at hhu.de>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> >>
> >> Am 2022-12-05 09:48, schrieb Christian Lehmann:
> >> > I am not sure how many members of this list would wish to continue
> >> > this discussion.
> >>
> >> I, for one, am currently writing a grammar for my dissertation and am
> >> reading everything in this discussion with great interest. Thanks to
> >> everyone participating in this discussion for pointing out all those
> >> things.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> ---
> >> Cat Butz (she)
> >> HHU D?sseldorf, general linguistics
> >>
> >> Cat Butz (sie)
> >> HHU D?sseldorf, allgemeine Sprachwissenschaft
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > For something to count as proof in a science means that it corresponds
> >> > to a certain pattern of argumentation by the methodological standards
> >> > on which scientists have agreed. These patterns are different for
> >> > logical and for empirical sciences. I feel reminded of
> >> >
> >> > Kamlah, Wilhelm & Lorenzen, Paul 1967, _Logische Prop?deutik.
> >> > Vorschule des vern?nftigen Redens._ Mannheim: Bibliographisches
> >> > Institut (B.I.-Hochschultaschenb?cher).
> >> >
> >> > translated as:
> >> > _Logical Propaedeutic: Pre-school of Reasonable Discourse._ Lanham,
> >> > Maryland: University Press of America, 1984.
> >> >
> >> > It is true that things are more complicated in empirical disciplines
> >> > because we have indeed to agree upon standards of validity. And to the
> >> > extent that it is impractical to counter-check everything that a
> >> > proponent assures his audience of, there is a portion of trust
> >> > involved in scientific discourse of an empirical discipline.
> >> >
> >> > Things work the Kamlah-Lorenzen way if a scientific claim is a simple
> >> > general statement of the kind 'in German, the definite article
> >> > precedes (rather than follows) the nominal group'. To prove it,
> >> > according to established standards of our discipline, it suffices for
> >> > me to produce a (probatory) example of a certain kind. If you do not
> >> > accept it, you may either operationalize my claim in such a way that
> >> > what I produced does not count as an example or to produce a
> >> > counter-example (of a postnominal definite article).
> >> >
> >> > The claim about the affix that you use as an example is more complex
> >> > since the issue appears to be what the correct analysis of a certain
> >> > occurrence is. This would have to be broken down into a set of simpler
> >> > statements in order to be tractable by Kamlah & Lorenzen.
> >> >
> >> > Best,
> >> > Christian
> >> >
> >> > Am 04.12.22 um 05:26 schrieb Juergen Bohnemeyer:
> >> >
> >> >> Dear Christian ? I stand corrected! Thanks for the link, I think
> >> >> it?s great that you?ve looked into this issue. I sincerely wish
> >> >> more people had.
> >> >>
> >> >> And I think I agree with the policy you propose. But allow me to
> >> >> elaborate just a little.
> >> >>
> >> >> Now, at the risk of splitting hairs, I?m afraid from where I look
> >> >> at things, ?probatory example? is an oxymoron.
> >> >>
> >> >> There?s nothing an example could prove. In fact, there?s no such
> >> >> thing as proof in science. Proof only exists in math, including in
> >> >> logic.
> >> >>
> >> >> The closest equivalent to proof in science is hypothesis testing.
> >> >>
> >> >> Can an example ever be said to serve as a test of a hypothesis?
> >> >>
> >> >> Let?s say the author is aiming to adjudicate between two competing
> >> >> analyses. One predicts that a certain affix will appear in a certain
> >> >> environment, while the competing analysis predicts that it won?t.
> >> >> Then the author produces an example that instantiates the relevant
> >> >> context, and features or doesn?t feature the affix, thereby
> >> >> confirming one prediction or the other.
> >> >>
> >> >> Under such conditions, the example in question can assume a role
> >> >> similar to that of hypothesis testing in experimental science.
> >> >>
> >> >> But then immediately validity concerns analogous to those in
> >> >> experimentation will present themselves. Such as:
> >> >>
> >> >> * Internal validity: Was the example correctly analyzed and coded?
> >> >> Is the occurrence of the affix in question actually conditioned
> >> >> solely by the factors the competing hypotheses assume, or could it
> >> >> also be conditioned by other factors?
> >> >> * External validity: Is the example reproducible with other
> >> >> members of the speech community? Assuming there are any left!
> >> >> * Ecological validity: Does the example actually reflect the
> >> >> everyday linguistic behavior of speakers of the language
> >> >> (/doculect)? Assuming there still is everyday use by the members of
> >> >> the community!
> >> >>
> >> >> As I see it, the recommendations your webpage makes for documenting
> >> >> the conditions under which a ?probatory? example was recorded go
> >> >> some way toward addressing concerns with external and ecological
> >> >> validity.
> >> >>
> >> >> But the biggest challenge for addressing such concerns is in my view
> >> >> that we haven?t developed standards for assessing and reporting
> >> >> the empirical basis for our descriptions ? the speakers we collect
> >> >> the data from, and how well they/it represent(s) the speech
> >> >> community, or which speech community it represents.
> >> >>
> >> >> Best -- Juergen
> >> >>
> >> >> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
> >> >> Professor, Department of Linguistics
> >> >> University at Buffalo
> >> >>
> >> >> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
> >> >> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
> >> >> Phone: (716) 645 0127
> >> >> Fax: (716) 645 3825
> >> >> Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu
> >> >> Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/ [1]
> >> >>
> >> >> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID
> >> >> 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)
> >> >>
> >> >> There?s A Crack In Everything - That?s How The Light Gets In
> >> >> (Leonard Cohen)
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >>
> >> >> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf
> >> >> of Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>
> >> >> Date: Friday, December 2, 2022 at 10:18 AM
> >> >> To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >> >> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> >> >> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] spectrograms in linguistic description and
> >> >> for language comparison
> >> >>
> >> >> Dear J?rgen,
> >> >>
> >> >> to mitigate a bit your pessimist opinion of the methodological
> >> >> situation of our discipline, let me mention, as a contribution to
> >> >> the discussion you are requiring, my web page
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> https://www.christianlehmann.eu/ling/ling_meth/ling_description/representations/?open=example.inc
> >> >> [2]
> >> >> which advocates a distinction between
> >> >>
> >> >> * a probatory example (which is data used as scientific evidence)
> >> >> * and an illustrative example (or pedagogical example, which is
> >> >> only meant to render a descriptive statement more concrete and,
> >> >> thus, to help understanding).
> >> >>
> >> >> Methodological standards for these two kinds of examples are
> >> >> completely different. On #1, I may recommend:
> >> >>
> >> >> Lehmann, Christian 2004, ?Data in linguistics.? _The Linguistic
> >> >> Review_ 21(3/4):275-310. [3]
> >> >>
> >> >> Best,
> >> >> Christian
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >>
> >> >> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
> >> >> Rudolfstr. 4
> >> >> 99092 Erfurt
> >> >> Deutschland
> >> >>
> >> >> Tel.:
> >> >>
> >> >> +49/361/2113417
> >> >>
> >> >> E-Post:
> >> >>
> >> >> christianw_lehmann at arcor.de
> >> >>
> >> >> Web:
> >> >>
> >> >> https://www.christianlehmann.eu [4]
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
> >> > Rudolfstr. 4
> >> > 99092 Erfurt
> >> > Deutschland
> >> >
> >> > Tel.:
> >> > +49/361/2113417
> >> >
> >> > E-Post:
> >> > christianw_lehmann at arcor.de
> >> >
> >> > Web:
> >> > https://www.christianlehmann.eu
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Links:
> >> > ------
> >> > [1] http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/
> >> > [2]
> >> >
> >>
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VXi3oaBXPpkSUjObO9z%2Bg0ZPyvILV%2FkhMGG441T56L8%3D&reserved=0
> >> > [3]
> >> >
> >>
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F249931781_Data_in_linguistics&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=UI%2BLyj4NP2pzzyidgM3Z5nh72VJP%2FHCQl1UjmMWsRRI%3D&reserved=0
> >> > [4]
> >> >
> >>
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=HAeLu5NMoRkuDSO7t0wiYIxRVXp7%2FCh1yAPK8ixnqR0%3D&reserved=0
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Lingtyp mailing list
> >> > Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >> > https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 6
> >> Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2022 22:50:02 +1100
> >> From: Lidia Federica Mazzitelli <lfmazzitelli at gmail.com>
> >> To: Cat Butz <Cat.Butz at hhu.de>
> >> Cc: Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>,
> >> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] spectrograms in linguistic description and for
> >> language comparison
> >> Message-ID:
> >> <
> >> CABZ3858K24jfoOnE03UJjb7L3+28npJM43+Wh2i7mRtbQ3Hxzg at mail.gmail.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >>
> >> I also think that the discussion is really interesting, and have read
> (and
> >> wish to read more) everything with great interest!
> >> I am also working on the grammar of a previously undescribed and
> >> relatively
> >> endangered language, and the selection of examples from the corpus, as
> >> well
> >> as the balancing of elicitation Vs natural discourse data (especially in
> >> terms of negative evidence), is not as straightforward as I may have
> >> thought before.
> >> Thank you!
> >>
> >> Best, Lidia
> >>
> >> Il mer 7 dic 2022, 22:39 Cat Butz <Cat.Butz at hhu.de> ha scritto:
> >>
> >> > Am 2022-12-05 09:48, schrieb Christian Lehmann:
> >> > > I am not sure how many members of this list would wish to continue
> >> > > this discussion.
> >> >
> >> > I, for one, am currently writing a grammar for my dissertation and am
> >> > reading everything in this discussion with great interest. Thanks to
> >> > everyone participating in this discussion for pointing out all those
> >> > things.
> >> >
> >> > Best,
> >> > ---
> >> > Cat Butz (she)
> >> > HHU D?sseldorf, general linguistics
> >> >
> >> > Cat Butz (sie)
> >> > HHU D?sseldorf, allgemeine Sprachwissenschaft
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > For something to count as proof in a science means that it
> corresponds
> >> > > to a certain pattern of argumentation by the methodological
> standards
> >> > > on which scientists have agreed. These patterns are different for
> >> > > logical and for empirical sciences. I feel reminded of
> >> > >
> >> > > Kamlah, Wilhelm & Lorenzen, Paul 1967, _Logische Prop?deutik.
> >> > > Vorschule des vern?nftigen Redens._ Mannheim: Bibliographisches
> >> > > Institut (B.I.-Hochschultaschenb?cher).
> >> > >
> >> > > translated as:
> >> > > _Logical Propaedeutic: Pre-school of Reasonable Discourse._ Lanham,
> >> > > Maryland: University Press of America, 1984.
> >> > >
> >> > > It is true that things are more complicated in empirical disciplines
> >> > > because we have indeed to agree upon standards of validity. And to
> the
> >> > > extent that it is impractical to counter-check everything that a
> >> > > proponent assures his audience of, there is a portion of trust
> >> > > involved in scientific discourse of an empirical discipline.
> >> > >
> >> > > Things work the Kamlah-Lorenzen way if a scientific claim is a
> simple
> >> > > general statement of the kind 'in German, the definite article
> >> > > precedes (rather than follows) the nominal group'. To prove it,
> >> > > according to established standards of our discipline, it suffices
> for
> >> > > me to produce a (probatory) example of a certain kind. If you do not
> >> > > accept it, you may either operationalize my claim in such a way that
> >> > > what I produced does not count as an example or to produce a
> >> > > counter-example (of a postnominal definite article).
> >> > >
> >> > > The claim about the affix that you use as an example is more complex
> >> > > since the issue appears to be what the correct analysis of a certain
> >> > > occurrence is. This would have to be broken down into a set of
> simpler
> >> > > statements in order to be tractable by Kamlah & Lorenzen.
> >> > >
> >> > > Best,
> >> > > Christian
> >> > >
> >> > > Am 04.12.22 um 05:26 schrieb Juergen Bohnemeyer:
> >> > >
> >> > >> Dear Christian ? I stand corrected! Thanks for the link, I think
> >> > >> it?s great that you?ve looked into this issue. I sincerely wish
> >> > >> more people had.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> And I think I agree with the policy you propose. But allow me to
> >> > >> elaborate just a little.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Now, at the risk of splitting hairs, I?m afraid from where I look
> >> > >> at things, ?probatory example? is an oxymoron.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> There?s nothing an example could prove. In fact, there?s no such
> >> > >> thing as proof in science. Proof only exists in math, including in
> >> > >> logic.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> The closest equivalent to proof in science is hypothesis testing.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Can an example ever be said to serve as a test of a hypothesis?
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Let?s say the author is aiming to adjudicate between two competing
> >> > >> analyses. One predicts that a certain affix will appear in a
> certain
> >> > >> environment, while the competing analysis predicts that it won?t.
> >> > >> Then the author produces an example that instantiates the relevant
> >> > >> context, and features or doesn?t feature the affix, thereby
> >> > >> confirming one prediction or the other.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Under such conditions, the example in question can assume a role
> >> > >> similar to that of hypothesis testing in experimental science.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> But then immediately validity concerns analogous to those in
> >> > >> experimentation will present themselves. Such as:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> * Internal validity: Was the example correctly analyzed and coded?
> >> > >> Is the occurrence of the affix in question actually conditioned
> >> > >> solely by the factors the competing hypotheses assume, or could it
> >> > >> also be conditioned by other factors?
> >> > >> * External validity: Is the example reproducible with other
> >> > >> members of the speech community? Assuming there are any left!
> >> > >> * Ecological validity: Does the example actually reflect the
> >> > >> everyday linguistic behavior of speakers of the language
> >> > >> (/doculect)? Assuming there still is everyday use by the members of
> >> > >> the community!
> >> > >>
> >> > >> As I see it, the recommendations your webpage makes for documenting
> >> > >> the conditions under which a ?probatory? example was recorded go
> >> > >> some way toward addressing concerns with external and ecological
> >> > >> validity.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> But the biggest challenge for addressing such concerns is in my
> view
> >> > >> that we haven?t developed standards for assessing and reporting
> >> > >> the empirical basis for our descriptions ? the speakers we collect
> >> > >> the data from, and how well they/it represent(s) the speech
> >> > >> community, or which speech community it represents.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Best -- Juergen
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
> >> > >> Professor, Department of Linguistics
> >> > >> University at Buffalo
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
> >> > >> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
> >> > >> Phone: (716) 645 0127
> >> > >> Fax: (716) 645 3825
> >> > >> Email: jb77 at buffalo.edu
> >> > >> Web: http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/ [1]
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Office hours Tu/Th 3:30-4:30pm in 642 Baldy or via Zoom (Meeting ID
> >> > >> 585 520 2411; Passcode Hoorheh)
> >> > >>
> >> > >> There?s A Crack In Everything - That?s How The Light Gets In
> >> > >> (Leonard Cohen)
> >> > >>
> >> > >> --
> >> > >>
> >> > >> From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on
> behalf
> >> > >> of Christian Lehmann <christian.lehmann at uni-erfurt.de>
> >> > >> Date: Friday, December 2, 2022 at 10:18 AM
> >> > >> To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >> > >> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> >> > >> Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] spectrograms in linguistic description and
> >> > >> for language comparison
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Dear J?rgen,
> >> > >>
> >> > >> to mitigate a bit your pessimist opinion of the methodological
> >> > >> situation of our discipline, let me mention, as a contribution to
> >> > >> the discussion you are requiring, my web page
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> https://www.christianlehmann.eu/ling/ling_meth/ling_description/representations/?open=example.inc
> >> > >> [2]
> >> > >> which advocates a distinction between
> >> > >>
> >> > >> * a probatory example (which is data used as scientific evidence)
> >> > >> * and an illustrative example (or pedagogical example, which is
> >> > >> only meant to render a descriptive statement more concrete and,
> >> > >> thus, to help understanding).
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Methodological standards for these two kinds of examples are
> >> > >> completely different. On #1, I may recommend:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Lehmann, Christian 2004, ?Data in linguistics.? _The Linguistic
> >> > >> Review_ 21(3/4):275-310. [3]
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Best,
> >> > >> Christian
> >> > >>
> >> > >> --
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
> >> > >> Rudolfstr. 4
> >> > >> 99092 Erfurt
> >> > >> Deutschland
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Tel.:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> +49/361/2113417
> >> > >>
> >> > >> E-Post:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> christianw_lehmann at arcor.de
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Web:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> https://www.christianlehmann.eu [4]
> >> > >
> >> > > --
> >> > > Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
> >> > > Rudolfstr. 4
> >> > > 99092 Erfurt
> >> > > Deutschland
> >> > >
> >> > > Tel.:
> >> > > +49/361/2113417
> >> > >
> >> > > E-Post:
> >> > > christianw_lehmann at arcor.de
> >> > >
> >> > > Web:
> >> > > https://www.christianlehmann.eu
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Links:
> >> > > ------
> >> > > [1] http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jb77/
> >> > > [2]
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2Fling%2Fling_meth%2Fling_description%2Frepresentations%2F%3Fopen%3Dexample.inc&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=VXi3oaBXPpkSUjObO9z%2Bg0ZPyvILV%2FkhMGG441T56L8%3D&reserved=0
> >> > > [3]
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fpublication%2F249931781_Data_in_linguistics&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=UI%2BLyj4NP2pzzyidgM3Z5nh72VJP%2FHCQl1UjmMWsRRI%3D&reserved=0
> >> > > [4]
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.christianlehmann.eu%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cjb77%40buffalo.edu%7C7fe4ba1414394757470008dad4783cd7%7C96464a8af8ed40b199e25f6b50a20250%7C0%7C0%7C638055911006309971%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=HAeLu5NMoRkuDSO7t0wiYIxRVXp7%2FCh1yAPK8ixnqR0%3D&reserved=0
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> --
>
> =========================================================
> |||| Pier Marco Bertinetto
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